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welcome to skeptical we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex Icarus and today's

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guest is very interesting guy

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he's a former professional boxer trained

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by heavyweight champ Floyd Patterson

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quite an amazing thing they're a former

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criminal investigator has worked on many

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high-profile cases before becoming an

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instructor at the Criminal Justice

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Institute and dr. rich Greco is also a

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professor of philosophy in world

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religion at Florida State College in

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Jacksonville who earned his PhD with a

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dissertation on Krishnamurti and tick

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not hon so like I said interesting guy

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and for those of you who've been around

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skeptical for a while

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you recognize rich as someone who's been

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on the show before somebody Eileen

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to kind of weigh in on topics he was

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recently on the interview that I did

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with dr. Donna Hoffman and he provided

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some great analysis there but he's also

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dumped some interviews for a skeptic Oh

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over the years so it's always great to

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connect with them and rich thanks for

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joining me on this one

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thanks again for having me man so what

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interesting guy like I said you know I'm

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doing this and we talked a couple times

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and we have like a good rapport going

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back and forth but I kind of read dug

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into your background and it's really

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really interesting and it's particularly

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relevant to these kind of things that

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we've been talking about today and that

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we're going to be getting into in terms

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of you know what kind of background it

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really takes to be able to engage in the

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discourse that we need to when we start

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getting into extended consciousness or

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talks about evil or those kind of things

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what else can we what else can we know

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from your back

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ground that you think is kind of maybe

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coming into play with the work that

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you've done in worldview that you have

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well I mean I don't know you've really

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done substantial trust it's a pretty

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good investigator yourself I could use

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your help back in the day I didn't

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realize you knew that much about my my

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background but in terms of the the past

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that led me here I guess has a lot to do

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with the fact that yeah you know I

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suppose if being a professional

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philosopher and I suppose like trained

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historian I guess to is sort of one

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branch of the quest for ultimate meaning

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and truth you know I certainly just

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investigation in a practical context

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doing a criminal investigation or any

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other kind is also essentially about the

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very same thing so I've been sending you

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a ton of these interviews I've been

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doing lately and they're kind of all

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over the board I'm Stella five Anika

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Lucas who's been a victim of what turns

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out is satanic ritual abuse since the

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time she was six years old sold into sex

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slavery then I sent you an interview

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with Christian fundamentalist guy who

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deals with it

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that is deals with satanic ritual abuse

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from a whole different basis so I sent

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you a bunch of these along with these

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interviews I've done most scholars I'm

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done like how are we supposed to sort

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this out and I think one of the things

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that emerge from that discussion is your

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background as a criminal investigator in

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how that might I don't know there's a

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worldliness to that where it's like you

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know this guy is a creep these horrible

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things and as a criminal investigator

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you know you have to play both sides

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you're like hey I can't you know I'll be

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too prejudiced but on the other hand I

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know this guy's a creep and I gonna nail

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them and there's that is that's needed I

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think that kind of lack of naivete is

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needed and is wanting in some of these

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interviews I've done and yeah yeah I

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certainly you know I think the the Heuer

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band one is particularly

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salient in that regard isn't it in terms

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of both you and Chris Shelton you

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subsequently interviewed being kind of

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frustrated at him even maybe more than

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you with the the lack of any what should

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what should I call a commitment in the

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scope of his inquiry again I tend to be

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a both/and guy when my thinking versus

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an ether or guy and I try to I try to

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reconcile maybe seemingly contradictory

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views and I think I remember you had

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when I did enter an interview with

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Stanley critter at the American

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Psychological Association conference I

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remember you expressing the exact same

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frustrations I'd not exact same it was a

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different context I suppose but very

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similar frustrations with him in that

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connection and and I understand that I

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guess at the same time though I also

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understand the need for an investigator

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whether it's a scholarly investigator or

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a criminal investigator to be impartial

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and unbiased insofar as you can realize

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that ideal because if when you're not

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right then you're just doing a polemic

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you're doing apologetics instead of an

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investigation and that's my big concern

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right you brought up that that interview

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you did with Stanley critter and that's

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a good one

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but I tell you what I wanted to do I

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want to play folks a clip from from

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another interview you did for us one

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with a guy who you've known for awhile

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and lives down there in Florida

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dr. Hoyt edge and this is from a while

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back I had to dig into the archives but

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I listened to this interview and it and

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again it's one of those where this stuff

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has come up for a while and particularly

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in parapsychology but I wanted to play

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you this clip and then we can chat about

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it so here goes a number of pair of

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psychologists a lot of them perhaps want

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to call the field a part of phenomena

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listing psychology long okay it for two

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reasons one it is just as Bob Bob Morris

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said what we ought to do if we want to

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have parapsychology you mean something

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in parapsychology be paid attention to

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if we can contribute something to know

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psychology then they're much more likely

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to say oh these are good people one that

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he didn't like I think he's also perhaps

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been a little unfair they're also

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playing it away or that's right yeah

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that's right I like Richard you know I

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know Richard I like him

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Susan blackboard Blackie knows the same

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way yes Susan has stayed in my home and

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so forth I love Susan right you know

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these are good good people good good

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he's talking about their a dr. Richard

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Wiseman who I don't know we haven't

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really kept up with him much on this

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show but he's a guy I would remind folks

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that Rupert Sheldrake was pretty

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measured guy and has that British

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Cambridge formality called intentionally

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deceptive regarding how his how he

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treated sheldricks research and then

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Susan Blackmore more or less out-and-out

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lied on the show when she said she

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wasn't interested in near-death

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experience research anymore and she

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hadn't kept up with it and then the very

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next month went and did a public

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presentation on near-death experience

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this is someone who's naive they're just

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naive they just don't understand the

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extent to which these guys who he says

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are nice guys are not nice guys and are

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completely undermining what was

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parapsychology I don't even know that

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parapsychology is relevant anymore which

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leads back to the first part of his

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quote where he says gee if we're just

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nice enough then maybe science will let

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us in the door here's a seat at the

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table if we can just you know convince

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him that we're really nice guys this

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this just doesn't fly so that's when I

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get back to the you know criminal

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investigator looks and goes wow yeah and

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you know it's interesting

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Paul Smith who I think you did a show

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with on skeptic oh I met him at a

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parapsychology conference and Nam and

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talked to him about this that issue in

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parapsychology there

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then Paul Smith being the remote viewing

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guy worked with the armies yet program

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just to refresh anybody's memory and

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yeah I thought I remember talking to him

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about that that's it's this very

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situation you're addressing and his

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response is the need of the

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parapsychological community specifically

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to please the scientific community to to

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become acceptable to him - it reminds

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him of Stockholm Syndrome in the sense

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that you know it's just you know these

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people who abuse you and don't

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understand you and and are really out to

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get you or the very ones you're just

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trying so hard to to please and and I

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think maybe to some extent you see some

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of these guys bending over backwards in

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deference to that project I want you to

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weigh in on that further rich because as

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I was sending you these interviews that

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I've done yeah I was kind of more and

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more trying to come to grips with the

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complete disconnect the complete

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disconnect here in academia and you're

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part of academia so I'm kind of asking

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you did man

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do what you can I do in terms of yeah

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but how bad is it I guess is what I'm

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saying yeah um you know again and I

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suppose you know I'm of two minds I'm

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torn I I see where you're coming from I

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really do on the other hand I get the

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the very rigid commitment of academics

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and scholars to to want to maintain you

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know a sense of impartial and unbiased

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perspective on the issues that they're

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discussing not act as though they have

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their minds so completely made up about

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not only the field but their opponents

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you know the people like Richard Wiseman

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and Susan Blackmore and there's millions

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of them right that they're going to sort

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of name call and dismiss and simply

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dismiss them because then you're not

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only going to get ignored in the

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academic community

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which again it's an important voice I

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mean it it may not be the only voice but

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it's an important voice and it's an

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important repository of knowledge but

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you're also going to get probably and

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rightfully so you're going to discredit

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yourself in the court of public opinion

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because you're gonna sound biased you're

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going to sound like you're not a

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disinterested detached on critical

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objective observer I don't know if

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people trust that and maybe they

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shouldn't I don't know if that message

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resonates with you at all I think it's I

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know how you feel I know you you're like

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look there's got to be a point where you

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just sort of call a spade a spade

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and make Li yeah exactly in its adding

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with so much calling a spade a spade

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it's just at some point it's kind of

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being out of touch with reality you know

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there's a certain reality there and if

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you don't if you're not coming to grips

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with it then what's the point and so

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that's I guess my thing with Hoyt edge

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is you don't know you're it's not gonna

273
00:12:05,929 --> 00:12:03,360
work out you are doing that as a

274
00:12:07,609 --> 00:12:05,939
specific strategy in this case and I

275
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:07,619
think this is going to relate to the

276
00:12:11,569 --> 00:12:08,850
interview we're going to talk about in a

277
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:11,579
minute with Hugh Urban and then Chris

278
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:13,170
Shelton of course who is this former

279
00:12:18,829 --> 00:12:15,689
Scientology member who gets totally

280
00:12:20,539 --> 00:12:18,839
screwed over by this cult and then you

281
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:20,549
got Hugh Urban who can't bring himself

282
00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:22,410
to talk about it in those terms and has

283
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:24,569
to dance around this is a repeat with

284
00:12:28,999 --> 00:12:26,970
Hoyt edge where he's saying no these are

285
00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:29,009
really nice guys and they really have my

286
00:12:33,319 --> 00:12:30,929
best interests at heart and it's like

287
00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:33,329
it's it just doesn't work that way and I

288
00:12:41,119 --> 00:12:35,220
don't think science can go forward with

289
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:41,129
that kind of level of just naivete about

290
00:12:45,079 --> 00:12:43,290
the way that the world works I get where

291
00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:45,089
you're coming from on the other hand I'm

292
00:12:50,449 --> 00:12:47,220
looking at things from say ahoy Tejas

293
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:50,459
perspective and thinking well you know

294
00:12:55,549 --> 00:12:53,610
so what do you you know sort of what do

295
00:12:57,530 --> 00:12:55,559
you want him to do what should he say

296
00:12:59,480 --> 00:12:57,540
about Richard Wiseman and Susan

297
00:13:01,939 --> 00:12:59,490
Blackmore he should say what Rupert

298
00:13:04,090 --> 00:13:01,949
Sheldrake did which is I've looked at

299
00:13:07,189 --> 00:13:04,100
that I've carefully considered his

300
00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:07,199
opinion on this I've looked at how he's

301
00:13:10,670 --> 00:13:09,990
handled the data and he is intentionally

302
00:13:13,009 --> 00:13:10,680
deceptive

303
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:13,019
in this case and that does not speak

304
00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:16,290
well for him as a trusted researcher

305
00:13:21,049 --> 00:13:19,470
that's everything that Rupert said and I

306
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,059
don't think you have to back off of any

307
00:13:25,129 --> 00:13:23,220
of that why would we trust someone who's

308
00:13:26,989 --> 00:13:25,139
intentionally deceptive I had Darrell

309
00:13:29,119 --> 00:13:26,999
bomb on and he says the same thing he

310
00:13:30,859 --> 00:13:29,129
said it in a little bit nicer terms but

311
00:13:33,199 --> 00:13:30,869
he said you know I don't know if the guy

312
00:13:36,879 --> 00:13:33,209
is completely deceptive but in the case

313
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:36,889
of how he tried to jury-rig this phony

314
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:40,410
replication of skeptical stuff he was

315
00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:43,410
being deceptive so that to me is clear

316
00:13:47,299 --> 00:13:45,689
and that's where parapsychology has

317
00:13:49,249 --> 00:13:47,309
completely run off the rails and that's

318
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:49,259
why it's no longer relevant and that's

319
00:13:53,809 --> 00:13:51,569
why you know when sam harris says in the

320
00:13:56,090 --> 00:13:53,819
email exchange to me in his snarky

321
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:56,100
little stupid kind of thing it's the

322
00:14:00,109 --> 00:13:57,600
backwater of science

323
00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:00,119
everyone goes well it must be because

324
00:14:03,290 --> 00:14:01,889
that's how they act they act like

325
00:14:05,410 --> 00:14:03,300
they're the backwater of science they

326
00:14:08,179 --> 00:14:05,420
deserve to be the backwater of science

327
00:14:09,859 --> 00:14:08,189
yeah I'm a I I feel like for the sake of

328
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:09,869
argument I should disagree with you

329
00:14:15,079 --> 00:14:11,730
there but I think at least certainly in

330
00:14:17,329 --> 00:14:15,089
terms of parapsychology I it's hard to

331
00:14:19,999 --> 00:14:17,339
disagree i I it seems that way and again

332
00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:20,009
I suppose I haven't kept up with that

333
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:21,809
research as much as I use and that's one

334
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:23,730
of the reasons why it's just not a very

335
00:14:30,679 --> 00:14:26,610
exciting field in a sense for me anymore

336
00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:30,689
but um gosh I mean I don't know I mean

337
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:32,970
then how can ya I I suppose if you if

338
00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:35,490
you really are convinced that the

339
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:37,860
disagreement and the claims being made

340
00:14:43,850 --> 00:14:39,779
by those who oppose you are egregious

341
00:14:45,439 --> 00:14:43,860
enough that they really are deceptive

342
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:45,449
that they really are intentionally

343
00:14:51,379 --> 00:14:49,170
trying to deceive um then you should

344
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:51,389
certainly you should call them out on it

345
00:14:56,269 --> 00:14:52,920
even if you do it like a gentleman if

346
00:14:57,769 --> 00:14:56,279
you do it in in you know um in neutral

347
00:15:01,519 --> 00:14:57,779
and not neutral but non adversarial

348
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:01,529
terms I don't know though if you thought

349
00:15:06,499 --> 00:15:03,600
do you think I wouldn't say that a Hoyt

350
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:06,509
edge is convinced of that though I think

351
00:15:10,249 --> 00:15:08,490
he gives these guys the benefit of the

352
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:10,259
doubt and a small thing like convinced

353
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:12,480
he isn't convinced and that's the

354
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:15,360
problem he's naive the evidence is clear

355
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,970
we're relying on him to have a clear

356
00:15:22,850 --> 00:15:20,160
read of the evidence and he can't do it

357
00:15:24,290 --> 00:15:22,860
so therefore he's not relevant and

358
00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:24,300
therefore and that's how

359
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:26,750
parapsychology has become irrelevant

360
00:15:31,820 --> 00:15:29,310
parapsychology is irrelevant all the

361
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:31,830
important people in it have kind of

362
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:34,560
moved on or never even joined the club

363
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:35,850
in the first place because they were

364
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:38,220
skeptical of it it's interesting looking

365
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:39,690
back we're looking back at an interview

366
00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:42,240
that you did in 2012 I mean is anyone

367
00:15:46,970 --> 00:15:44,790
talking about parapsychology anymore not

368
00:15:51,650 --> 00:15:46,980
really not that I think but I can think

369
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:51,660
of I mean you know who we're going to

370
00:15:56,740 --> 00:15:54,210
look to a dean radin fear I've always

371
00:15:59,420 --> 00:15:56,750
been a little bit kind of you know

372
00:16:02,300 --> 00:15:59,430
parapsychology but not exactly up front

373
00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:02,310
the parapsychology conferences we're

374
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:03,750
kind of doing his own thing over there

375
00:16:07,970 --> 00:16:05,700
at ions and now he wants me the spirit

376
00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:07,980
stuff which is kind of the leap forward

377
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:09,780
even though I don't totally I'm not

378
00:16:12,770 --> 00:16:11,250
totally done with what he's doing it's

379
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:12,780
the leap forward with extended

380
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:14,730
consciousness it's not staying in this

381
00:16:19,610 --> 00:16:17,250
stupid oh well let's kind of look at it

382
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:19,620
as anomalous psychology because then

383
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:21,090
they'll like this kind of thing it

384
00:16:25,970 --> 00:16:23,130
doesn't make any sense and and that's I

385
00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:25,980
guess that's my point of kind of getting

386
00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:28,230
into this is that if we're going to talk

387
00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:30,420
about comparative religions and we're

388
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:32,390
going to talk about this other you know

389
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:35,250
thing that I sent you with Hugh urban

390
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:41,130
but my concern is that that whole that

391
00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:43,860
whole branch of the social sciences

392
00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:47,460
including philosophy is headed down that

393
00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:51,060
same path of parapsychology where

394
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:53,310
they're just completely irrelevant

395
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:55,410
you know I when I listen to humour band

396
00:17:00,860 --> 00:16:57,690
it's it's irrelevant

397
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:00,870
he sounds irrelevant you know I was it

398
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:03,600
was that it was that frustrating to you

399
00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:08,490
that the dialogue you had no the entire

400
00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:11,370
dialogue wasn't that frustrating but at

401
00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:13,550
the end of the day I think his argument

402
00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:18,030
as it stands up to the real guy who was

403
00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:19,920
in it he sounds irrelevant we've been

404
00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:22,980
talking around it so let me play ok play

405
00:17:28,850 --> 00:17:26,520
in some clips from that interview so

406
00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:28,860
here is the episode that I did with dr.

407
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:32,100
Hugh or Ben and it's episode 437 and I

408
00:17:37,870 --> 00:17:35,280
really did like and enjoy this guy and I

409
00:17:40,420 --> 00:17:37,880
think you know probably over a

410
00:17:41,710 --> 00:17:40,430
beer we'd have a great conversation he's

411
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:41,720
interested in a lot of stuff I'm

412
00:17:46,990 --> 00:17:43,070
interested in music

413
00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:47,000
Tantra guy and he's cool and he but he's

414
00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:48,700
written his book on the Church of

415
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:52,070
Scientology and the book like our friend

416
00:17:57,460 --> 00:17:54,710
dr. Jeff [\h__\h] at Rice University said

417
00:17:59,800 --> 00:17:57,470
wow this is a great book this is you

418
00:18:02,110 --> 00:17:59,810
know until now there was no extensive

419
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:02,120
scholarship on Scientology and this guy

420
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:05,110
has done it isn't this great you know

421
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:07,250
but the thing that I really kind of

422
00:18:13,660 --> 00:18:10,640
hammered him on that led me to you is if

423
00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:13,670
you look into Scientology and you look

424
00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:17,630
at the history of it it has this kind of

425
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:23,270
very overt a cult connection you know so

426
00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:25,970
it's l ron Hubbard and persons who were

427
00:18:32,140 --> 00:18:29,030
out in the desert in California and

428
00:18:34,450 --> 00:18:32,150
they're trying to summon the Anti Christ

429
00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:34,460
through the [\h__\h] of Babylon and they're

430
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,230
dead serious about it

431
00:18:40,690 --> 00:18:38,720
and and but here's the thing it's it's

432
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:40,700
not that they're dead serious about it

433
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:43,520
it's that we have to I think fully

434
00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:46,480
consider whether or not there is any

435
00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:49,100
reality to that and then I think is the

436
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:50,990
question and that's what I brought up

437
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:55,280
with dr. dr. urban and let me play that

438
00:18:59,800 --> 00:18:57,050
clip for us here and then we'll chat

439
00:19:02,320 --> 00:18:59,810
about it a little bit the part that

440
00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:02,330
concerns me is we have reason to believe

441
00:19:08,740 --> 00:19:05,630
that KL offend men who stare at goats I

442
00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:08,750
mean all this stuff is going on and so

443
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:11,720
I'm just not sure that we can bracket

444
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:14,710
that back into oh you know those

445
00:19:20,170 --> 00:19:17,090
Scientologists they were kind of playing

446
00:19:22,690 --> 00:19:20,180
off of the Cold War jitters and we'll

447
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:22,700
have but I guess I would say that I

448
00:19:28,780 --> 00:19:26,720
can't know as a historian a religion

449
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:28,790
whether there's a reality with what

450
00:19:31,690 --> 00:19:30,050
they're talking about but I can't say

451
00:19:35,050 --> 00:19:31,700
that they certainly believed there was

452
00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:35,060
and took it very seriously okay so

453
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:36,350
that's what that is

454
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:38,530
that is the crux of it what do you think

455
00:19:42,940 --> 00:19:41,450
you know again I guess when I when I I

456
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:42,950
guess we were sort of going back and

457
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:44,720
forth about this a little bit and I made

458
00:19:50,850 --> 00:19:48,130
up the criminal investigation analogy I

459
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:50,860
kind of get the idea that

460
00:19:55,919 --> 00:19:53,110
again if he wants to be a credible

461
00:19:57,330 --> 00:19:55,929
historian and I think he was doing more

462
00:19:59,010 --> 00:19:57,340
of it as I recall the book I read the

463
00:20:00,900 --> 00:19:59,020
book it was a while ago I read the book

464
00:20:02,730 --> 00:20:00,910
he was been doing more of a sort of an

465
00:20:04,350 --> 00:20:02,740
institutional history of it wasn't he

466
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:04,360
kind of how the sort of how the core

467
00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:06,670
organization was formed and he wasn't

468
00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:08,620
really talking about their ideas as much

469
00:20:16,169 --> 00:20:15,580
right I mean maybe that's because here

470
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:16,179
is the issue

471
00:20:21,410 --> 00:20:18,640
yours is yeah if we fly up 10,000 feet

472
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:21,420
and we look at how Scientology

473
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:24,370
interfaces with our culture yeah it's a

474
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,370
cult right you talk to anybody at this

475
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:29,440
point and they go yeah it's a cult I

476
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:31,330
know I saw the woman on TV who's on the

477
00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:34,510
expose called it's a cult it's a cult

478
00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:36,700
and now we have this total disconnect

479
00:20:41,070 --> 00:20:39,070
because I'm talking to this respected

480
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:41,080
Ohio State University professor and he's

481
00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:44,410
going well you know it's a new religious

482
00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:48,070
movement and we have to understand that

483
00:20:53,070 --> 00:20:49,870
we can't you know be too quick to

484
00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:53,080
condemn it's like no this so now it's

485
00:20:59,220 --> 00:20:55,750
back to white edge no dude it's a cult

486
00:21:01,409 --> 00:20:59,230
you don't get it I think I'm a little

487
00:21:03,870 --> 00:21:01,419
bit even more sympathetic with the

488
00:21:06,299 --> 00:21:03,880
historians perspective here because what

489
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:06,309
he's trying to do and again is do

490
00:21:11,610 --> 00:21:09,610
precisely what the general public in a

491
00:21:14,669 --> 00:21:11,620
sense doesn't do right I mean if we if

492
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:14,679
we allowed sort of um you know that

493
00:21:19,169 --> 00:21:16,690
whatever the fashionable trends and what

494
00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:19,179
you hear in pop culture to determine

495
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:22,360
what the truth of a situation is then

496
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:24,010
why would we need courts why would we

497
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:25,690
need scholars you know why would we need

498
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:27,730
criminal investigators you're the bull

499
00:21:33,090 --> 00:21:30,370
fan guy and you're kind of playing this

500
00:21:36,570 --> 00:21:33,100
slippery slope game here no I think we

501
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:36,580
can have both we can have like I'm

502
00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:38,799
telling I'm gonna hold up Rupert in that

503
00:21:46,650 --> 00:21:42,280
case cuz Rupert can say look I tried to

504
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:46,660
do this research with Richard Wiseman

505
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:49,510
and he was intentionally deceptive he's

506
00:21:55,049 --> 00:21:52,090
deceptive in doing research he's worth

507
00:21:58,049 --> 00:21:55,059
deceptive in reporting that research

508
00:22:02,070 --> 00:21:58,059
that is important we don't need to kind

509
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:02,080
of dancer yeah and and so then the same

510
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:04,110
way I think you know what

511
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:08,730
what I think the objection to what dr.

512
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:11,490
Hugh Urban is saying comes from again

513
00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:13,770
we've referenced this but now I'll play

514
00:22:19,610 --> 00:22:15,809
at this interview that I did with Chris

515
00:22:21,289 --> 00:22:19,620
Shelton who is a yeah I guess we gotta

516
00:22:22,610 --> 00:22:21,299
call it for what it is cuz I asked him

517
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:22,620
if that's okay to call it that and

518
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:26,820
that's that he's a victim of Scientology

519
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:29,970
so let me play that clip and then we can

520
00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:32,190
kind of talk about that if you're going

521
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,780
to publish an academic paper about

522
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:36,000
Scientology you better have something to

523
00:22:40,669 --> 00:22:38,850
say and if what you have to say is

524
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:40,679
simply regurgitated Scientology

525
00:22:44,419 --> 00:22:42,510
promotional materials and I am

526
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:44,429
intimately familiar with Scientology's

527
00:22:51,650 --> 00:22:48,890
promotional materials I wrote them so I

528
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:51,660
understand how Scientology presents

529
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:54,240
itself to the world and I understand the

530
00:22:59,840 --> 00:22:57,330
curtain or veil behind which Scientology

531
00:23:05,419 --> 00:22:59,850
operates and what they do when people

532
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:05,429
are around is dr. urban to urban just

533
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:07,290
being duped here he's just being taken

534
00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:12,330
in uh you know and he in regard to Chris

535
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:15,660
Shelton's claims they're having read the

536
00:23:20,299 --> 00:23:18,480
book and again you know he's obviously

537
00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:20,309
more more you know knowledgeable about

538
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:22,320
Scientology's promotional materials but

539
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:24,210
I never got the impression that I was

540
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:27,390
reading a biased account in favor of

541
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:29,970
Scientology or to try to make them look

542
00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:32,610
good or to try to be a public service

543
00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:34,520
announcement for them when I was reading

544
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:38,400
Urban's book in fact interestingly after

545
00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:39,929
I read it and this was a while ago I

546
00:23:45,169 --> 00:23:42,150
came away with some very with a much

547
00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:45,179
worse view of Scientology at least as an

548
00:23:49,130 --> 00:23:47,340
institution than I had previously I

549
00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:49,140
didn't know a lot of the things that he

550
00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:52,260
revealed I it - I I know several people

551
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:53,880
in the Church of Scientology are very

552
00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:56,010
well was it well placed they're very

553
00:23:59,950 --> 00:23:57,540
prominent in the organization they

554
00:24:03,200 --> 00:23:59,960
they've you know they do well these

555
00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:03,210
classes themselves they're very they've

556
00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:04,590
they're up to those why they call them

557
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:07,110
ot levels on the bridge they call it

558
00:24:10,419 --> 00:24:08,790
they're at the highest ODI levels which

559
00:24:12,919 --> 00:24:10,429
in Scientology means that you've

560
00:24:14,330 --> 00:24:12,929
attained the highest spiritual state you

561
00:24:16,259 --> 00:24:14,340
can and so they're very what they're

562
00:24:18,389 --> 00:24:16,269
very prominent in the in the instance

563
00:24:20,579 --> 00:24:18,399
I mentioned it to one of them and

564
00:24:23,069 --> 00:24:20,589
apparently they went out and read it

565
00:24:27,709 --> 00:24:23,079
themselves and they were going to send

566
00:24:30,029 --> 00:24:27,719
me a bunch of mistakes that he had made

567
00:24:33,089 --> 00:24:30,039
that that urban had made making

568
00:24:34,769 --> 00:24:33,099
Scientology look bad when he shouldn't

569
00:24:38,069 --> 00:24:34,779
have her in other words casting them in

570
00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:38,079
an unfairly bad light so I mean I don't

571
00:24:40,379 --> 00:24:39,609
know and as a criminal investigator

572
00:24:42,509 --> 00:24:40,389
again

573
00:24:44,489 --> 00:24:42,519
IIIi think it's great to hear all these

574
00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:44,499
victim and you know sort of witness

575
00:24:49,079 --> 00:24:46,569
eyewitness statements as a criminal

576
00:24:51,899 --> 00:24:49,089
investigator you'd call them from from

577
00:24:55,049 --> 00:24:51,909
people who have endured um you know

578
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:55,059
Scientology's worst practices but again

579
00:24:59,579 --> 00:24:57,369
the value you would as a criminal

580
00:25:02,339 --> 00:24:59,589
investigator the value of a victim or

581
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:02,349
witness statement is great and it's

582
00:25:07,229 --> 00:25:04,329
important but it's also limited by the

583
00:25:09,569 --> 00:25:07,239
very intimate vantage point that it

584
00:25:11,999 --> 00:25:09,579
gives you on a situation I don't think

585
00:25:13,949 --> 00:25:12,009
you really buy that but like I can

586
00:25:16,349 --> 00:25:13,959
sympathize I don't buy it

587
00:25:18,809 --> 00:25:16,359
let me hit it from a different from a

588
00:25:20,579 --> 00:25:18,819
different angle that I think you you can

589
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:20,589
definitely relate to and we'll see how

590
00:25:27,209 --> 00:25:23,769
this plays beyond the curt oprah winfrey

591
00:25:30,089 --> 00:25:27,219
new-age thing that most people get what

592
00:25:33,539 --> 00:25:30,099
he's saying about science the science of

593
00:25:36,869 --> 00:25:33,549
consciousness is much much closer to

594
00:25:38,579 --> 00:25:36,879
what leading researchers are saying so I

595
00:25:41,969 --> 00:25:38,589
guess returning to kind of this earlier

596
00:25:44,989 --> 00:25:41,979
point if you can't get consciousness

597
00:25:47,819 --> 00:25:44,999
right if you're playing with

598
00:25:50,069 --> 00:25:47,829
consciousness is an illusion as your

599
00:25:52,499 --> 00:25:50,079
atheist colleague no doubt believes

600
00:25:54,209 --> 00:25:52,509
you're not even in the game yeah that's

601
00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:54,219
interesting point and I guess I would

602
00:25:59,489 --> 00:25:56,049
say that well there's couple answers to

603
00:26:01,619 --> 00:25:59,499
that question that there is a movement

604
00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:01,629
in religious studies and other fields

605
00:26:05,189 --> 00:26:03,609
that is extremely interested in

606
00:26:07,649 --> 00:26:05,199
consciousness from different

607
00:26:10,619 --> 00:26:07,659
perspectives but in my own work I mean

608
00:26:12,989 --> 00:26:10,629
I'm a historian and so I look at what

609
00:26:18,059 --> 00:26:12,999
people do and the texts they leave

610
00:26:21,899 --> 00:26:18,069
behind and what we can sort of see okay

611
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:21,909
so I think that this puts a different

612
00:26:26,219 --> 00:26:24,849
angle a different spin what I keep

613
00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:26,229
pounding and I want you to pound back

614
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:27,849
that's what I like that's what skeptical

615
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:29,910
is about

616
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:34,090
he's in he is forced dr. urban is forced

617
00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:36,570
to come at this from an atheistic

618
00:26:42,030 --> 00:26:38,740
biological robot meaningless universe

619
00:26:44,570 --> 00:26:42,040
perspective the head it's awful that

620
00:26:48,510 --> 00:26:44,580
that's who the head of his department

621
00:26:50,909 --> 00:26:48,520
right yes okay maybe listen the whole

622
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:50,919
interview early I guess hey you know I

623
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:52,960
mean you really hold his feet to the

624
00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:54,940
fire and it's like so here's other

625
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:57,390
interviews I've done with academics and

626
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:00,640
you know they go look man I can't

627
00:27:05,310 --> 00:27:03,490
publish with that I may believe that

628
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:05,320
that's true but I can't get that

629
00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:08,110
published you know Hugh is out there

630
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:12,940
doing a Tantra he's joining some Tantra

631
00:27:17,789 --> 00:27:15,850
obscure community in India that has

632
00:27:19,980 --> 00:27:17,799
these ancient connections to the tantric

633
00:27:21,930 --> 00:27:19,990
tradition and when you ask him he says

634
00:27:23,730 --> 00:27:21,940
yeah of course I do rituals I do these

635
00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:23,740
other things because I immerse myself in

636
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:25,830
what's going on there and

637
00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:28,090
anthropologically that maybe may have

638
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:29,590
its disadvantages but I don't see any

639
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:31,690
other way to do it so he is entering the

640
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:33,490
extended consciousness realm and then

641
00:27:37,409 --> 00:27:35,410
he's coming back and telling us yeah but

642
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:37,419
when I write about this or when I have

643
00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:40,290
to talk about this I have to create this

644
00:27:50,659 --> 00:27:45,580
you know kind of false reality that says

645
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:50,669
I have to jam this back into this goofy

646
00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:52,750
materialistic thing and that's why I

647
00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:54,400
think the whole thing comes out as

648
00:28:00,330 --> 00:27:57,130
gobbly [\h__\h] again a fair point

649
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:00,340
um but I bet to push back a little bit I

650
00:28:06,780 --> 00:28:03,730
don't know if this particular guy doing

651
00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:06,790
this particular kind of research in that

652
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:08,500
particular case meaning the

653
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:09,970
institutional sort of history of

654
00:28:17,190 --> 00:28:13,510
Scientology feels that he is in a

655
00:28:19,289 --> 00:28:17,200
position to make judgments about the

656
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:19,299
verticality if that's is that the issue

657
00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:21,490
the veracity of their of their beliefs

658
00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:24,340
and on that basis see but I think you're

659
00:28:31,620 --> 00:28:26,380
going back on the email that you sent me

660
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:31,630
I'm calling all right because he's gonna

661
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:34,720
go back on one or the other right he's

662
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:36,690
gonna have a certain paradigm a certain

663
00:28:43,529 --> 00:28:39,970
mindset worldview and then he's gonna go

664
00:28:46,499 --> 00:28:43,539
so he's adopted one which is this

665
00:28:49,019 --> 00:28:46,509
humanistic atheistic one did you see I

666
00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:49,029
didn't get that from the book I I just I

667
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:51,460
I would at the end of the book I found

668
00:28:55,409 --> 00:28:53,710
myself wanting to know that because like

669
00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:55,419
you that's what I'm really interested in

670
00:28:58,139 --> 00:28:56,830
that that would have been the meat I

671
00:29:00,240 --> 00:28:58,149
wasn't really that impressed with the

672
00:29:01,769 --> 00:29:00,250
book action because of that I thought

673
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:01,779
you're good guy to play along with me

674
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:05,769
here but I go back the hook for me was

675
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:09,730
the l ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons in

676
00:29:15,749 --> 00:29:12,970
the desert yeah summoning the Antichrist

677
00:29:19,019 --> 00:29:15,759
needs me yeah so this is the this is the

678
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:19,029
point where all this comes to a head and

679
00:29:24,090 --> 00:29:22,330
if you're Hugh Urban you go well that

680
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:24,100
doesn't really matter what matters is

681
00:29:30,090 --> 00:29:27,070
that they believed it no you got that

682
00:29:32,879 --> 00:29:30,100
completely wrong that is secondary

683
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:32,889
that is completely secondary to whether

684
00:29:39,779 --> 00:29:37,210
or not there is any possible reality to

685
00:29:42,509 --> 00:29:39,789
them making contact making connection

686
00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:42,519
with an extended consciousness realm and

687
00:29:48,090 --> 00:29:44,500
that consciousness that extended

688
00:29:51,149 --> 00:29:48,100
consciousness realm interacting with us

689
00:29:53,009 --> 00:29:51,159
and in the formation of this religion

690
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:53,019
that's what matters most it's not

691
00:29:58,919 --> 00:29:54,850
whether they believed it or not

692
00:30:02,220 --> 00:29:58,929
yeah I agree personally but I get if

693
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:02,230
somebody feels as though that's beyond

694
00:30:06,210 --> 00:30:04,360
their that you know that they're you

695
00:30:07,769 --> 00:30:06,220
know they yeah you're here you don't you

696
00:30:09,659 --> 00:30:07,779
don't buy that you think you think if

697
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:09,669
you do that deepest study I guess is

698
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:11,830
what you're saying that if you've done

699
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:13,600
that deeper study of Scientology and

700
00:30:16,619 --> 00:30:15,039
what the people are all about what

701
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:16,629
they're saying and doing that you should

702
00:30:21,539 --> 00:30:18,399
at least be able to commit yourself to

703
00:30:23,639 --> 00:30:21,549
some statement about the veracity of

704
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:23,649
what they're doing and what they believe

705
00:30:29,580 --> 00:30:26,080
I think it's a slightly different issue

706
00:30:31,409 --> 00:30:29,590
it goes back to to Rupert and Richard

707
00:30:35,039 --> 00:30:31,419
Wiseman Rupert Sheldrake and Richard

708
00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:35,049
Wiseman I can't look into the soul of

709
00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:36,100
Richard Wiseman

710
00:30:41,580 --> 00:30:38,740
and all leather and tell whether he was

711
00:30:44,879 --> 00:30:41,590
being intentionally deceptive okay what

712
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:44,889
I can do is I can look at his behavior

713
00:30:50,639 --> 00:30:47,529
and this is to the Criminal Investigator

714
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:50,649
model I can look at the behavior and say

715
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:53,990
you know was their criminality here

716
00:31:00,130 --> 00:30:56,690
in the case of Richard Wiseman did he

717
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:00,140
perform his duties as a fair and honest

718
00:31:05,289 --> 00:31:02,690
researcher and I would say no he didn't

719
00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:05,299
and therefore when Hoyt edge says these

720
00:31:11,169 --> 00:31:07,580
are good people he's missed the point

721
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:11,179
the point is were that was he deceptive

722
00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:12,799
and I would say the same thing is here

723
00:31:19,090 --> 00:31:16,220
true if you cannot if you cannot come to

724
00:31:21,220 --> 00:31:19,100
some determination as to whether or not

725
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:21,230
there's a reality to that extended

726
00:31:26,620 --> 00:31:23,570
consciousness realm then you need to

727
00:31:28,570 --> 00:31:26,630
stop everything you're doing and you

728
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:28,580
need to do as much research as you can

729
00:31:34,779 --> 00:31:31,970
in order to determine the reality or non

730
00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:34,789
reality of that you can't pretend like

731
00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:40,220
that isn't the main thing about this and

732
00:31:44,139 --> 00:31:42,460
I'm reading a history of Western

733
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:44,149
anthropology and you're right there's

734
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:46,250
that's a big issue there right well you

735
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:48,260
go in and you observe a culture and it's

736
00:31:53,649 --> 00:31:51,049
practices and beliefs and you know the

737
00:31:55,779 --> 00:31:53,659
the you know should you as a as a

738
00:31:57,580 --> 00:31:55,789
disinterested spectator which is

739
00:31:59,470 --> 00:31:57,590
essentially what right an anthropologist

740
00:32:01,330 --> 00:31:59,480
an anthropologist theoretically supposed

741
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:01,340
to be a fly on the wall should you be

742
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:03,710
then drawing conclusions about whether

743
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:06,320
they're you know by our standards

744
00:32:12,340 --> 00:32:09,529
mystical beliefs have any substance or

745
00:32:15,130 --> 00:32:12,350
not or should you is your job just to

746
00:32:19,180 --> 00:32:15,140
describe how they feel and and reserve

747
00:32:20,669 --> 00:32:19,190
judgment um and I you know there's

748
00:32:24,370 --> 00:32:20,679
things to be said on both sides of that

749
00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:24,380
but but I I get why anthropologists

750
00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:26,120
would for instance and and that's

751
00:32:31,779 --> 00:32:28,190
essentially what what Hugh Urban was

752
00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:31,789
doing right I get why they want to be a

753
00:32:36,669 --> 00:32:34,760
disinterested fly on the wall instead of

754
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:36,679
going that one step further just in

755
00:32:40,750 --> 00:32:38,210
other words just describing telling you

756
00:32:43,330 --> 00:32:40,760
what Scientologists believe as opposed

757
00:32:45,220 --> 00:32:43,340
to saying well they're full of crap or

758
00:32:46,779 --> 00:32:45,230
they're not or I believe them it's up to

759
00:32:48,909 --> 00:32:46,789
me to say whether they're full of crap

760
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:48,919
because I get to do my little thing here

761
00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:51,200
but right what I do think they have to

762
00:32:56,260 --> 00:32:54,169
do is they have to be able to and again

763
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:56,270
this is came out in the email exchange

764
00:33:00,639 --> 00:32:58,880
that we had is that they need to

765
00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:00,649
understand that they are never a

766
00:33:05,409 --> 00:33:03,320
disinterested party they need to

767
00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:05,419
understand that what the science at the

768
00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:07,440
very least tells us is that

769
00:33:13,310 --> 00:33:10,980
we are interacting with that which we

770
00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:13,320
observe and we can understand that more

771
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:16,049
than just a from a your subatomic

772
00:33:20,379 --> 00:33:18,240
physics standpoint we can also

773
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:20,389
understand that as many anthropologists

774
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:23,129
have is that from a cultural standpoint

775
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:26,210
we cannot get in there and just be this

776
00:33:31,310 --> 00:33:29,129
observer who doesn't affect it right so

777
00:33:32,659 --> 00:33:31,320
when you leave your machete behind in

778
00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:32,669
the forest

779
00:33:37,879 --> 00:33:35,190
to the culture that never had a machete

780
00:33:40,220 --> 00:33:37,889
and you come back three years later and

781
00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:40,230
you'll find that it's the Lord of the

782
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:42,870
Flies and whoever has the machete is now

783
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:47,370
the king you were always part of the

784
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:49,769
process and how that gets played out is

785
00:33:55,580 --> 00:33:54,000
is it's just the way that it is yeah I

786
00:33:58,970 --> 00:33:55,590
guess so on the other hand you know I

787
00:34:01,940 --> 00:33:58,980
again did drawn experience from my

788
00:34:03,889 --> 00:34:01,950
criminal investigating days you know I I

789
00:34:06,529 --> 00:34:03,899
was I was a polygraph examiner as well

790
00:34:08,030 --> 00:34:06,539
and got the credential I was trained and

791
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:08,040
at night sometimes the polygraph

792
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:10,290
examinations and I did want in a big

793
00:34:14,359 --> 00:34:13,169
capital case and they actually called me

794
00:34:15,710 --> 00:34:14,369
in to testify which doesn't usually

795
00:34:18,169 --> 00:34:15,720
happen because usually don't like

796
00:34:20,540 --> 00:34:18,179
polygraph they don't admit polygraph

797
00:34:23,329 --> 00:34:20,550
evidence in court but this time they did

798
00:34:25,819 --> 00:34:23,339
and I was testifying for the defense

799
00:34:27,889 --> 00:34:25,829
attorney and it was weird was it was at

800
00:34:30,109 --> 00:34:27,899
a sentencing hearing of all things after

801
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:30,119
the verdict of guilt had been determined

802
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:31,980
I'm not really sure why he wanted this

803
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:34,169
evidence entered but I testified that

804
00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:37,290
this guy had essentially past my

805
00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:40,260
polygraph test and interestingly now the

806
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:42,569
attorney there he was asking me about it

807
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:44,970
we went through the whole thing and at

808
00:34:51,319 --> 00:34:48,240
the end of my statement to him in court

809
00:34:53,869 --> 00:34:51,329
there he said well you know so in your

810
00:34:57,980 --> 00:34:53,879
opinion and this guy is innocent of the

811
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:57,990
charges right and I said well I'm not

812
00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:00,720
really qualified to enemity maybe he'll

813
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:02,040
like this is where Alex Secours would

814
00:35:06,559 --> 00:35:03,930
get mad at me I I said I'm not really

815
00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:06,569
qualified to attest to that well I did

816
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:09,180
and the reason is the rial is because

817
00:35:15,710 --> 00:35:12,690
all I did on that case was do one

818
00:35:18,609 --> 00:35:15,720
forensic I took one forensic kind of

819
00:35:21,230 --> 00:35:18,619
narrow look at the circumstances and

820
00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:21,240
provided the testimony that came from

821
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:23,340
my narrow perspective on it like any

822
00:35:30,250 --> 00:35:26,730
forensic person does in a case and that

823
00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:30,260
was all I felt responsibly required

824
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:33,630
responsibly compelled to to talk about

825
00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:36,510
the person's guilt with reference to the

826
00:35:41,540 --> 00:35:39,150
entire scenario that I wasn't an expert

827
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:41,550
in and I hadn't done an investigation on

828
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:44,160
I thought would was wrong to do and the

829
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:46,050
attorney kept pushing me to do that and

830
00:35:50,420 --> 00:35:48,570
I wouldn't do it and he got mad so I

831
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:50,430
mean again I don't know if that's

832
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:53,610
exactly analogous but to me maybe let's

833
00:35:59,780 --> 00:35:56,130
make it analysis what if I asked you to

834
00:36:02,930 --> 00:35:59,790
defend the idea that we need to take a

835
00:36:05,180 --> 00:36:02,940
balanced look at Scientology as a new

836
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:05,190
religious movement that will stand

837
00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:08,490
beside other religions that we respect

838
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:10,920
and admire and we shouldn't be kind of

839
00:36:18,380 --> 00:36:15,960
too swayed by personal accounts and

840
00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:18,390
testimony like that of Chris Shelton who

841
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:20,190
says this is a cult I was in it I know

842
00:36:25,190 --> 00:36:21,930
that it's a cult it's a destructive cult

843
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,200
it's been incredibly you know harmful to

844
00:36:30,260 --> 00:36:27,359
all these people that I can bring

845
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:30,270
forward but how would you how would you

846
00:36:36,410 --> 00:36:32,910
give a balanced view of that in defense

847
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:36,420
of you know anyone who writes a book in

848
00:36:43,790 --> 00:36:41,850
that balance kind of way um you mean how

849
00:36:46,370 --> 00:36:43,800
would they be justified in doing that

850
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:46,380
how would you defend Scientology as a

851
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:49,290
new religious movement I'm really vague

852
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:51,450
on what and because I think it is sort

853
00:36:56,540 --> 00:36:54,000
of a vague concept on what a cult is as

854
00:37:00,560 --> 00:36:56,550
opposed to a religion we it's a term we

855
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:00,570
throw around a lot but what is that cult

856
00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:02,550
then but what is an example of something

857
00:37:07,790 --> 00:37:05,670
that you think is clearly a cult I guess

858
00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:07,800
I don't that's why and again this is

859
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:09,990
where I guess I'm more sympathetic to

860
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:12,690
the human perspective on these things I

861
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:14,760
um I don't know if you'd agree with this

862
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:17,880
but to me cult is is just sort of a

863
00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:20,760
vague term that that that says nothing

864
00:37:24,830 --> 00:37:24,540
but carries a lot of bias baggage with

865
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:24,840
it

866
00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:27,090
so as opposed to religion as opposed to

867
00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:30,150
religion but how is it a better how is

868
00:37:33,819 --> 00:37:33,300
religion as a word and any better any

869
00:37:35,979 --> 00:37:33,829
better

870
00:37:39,999 --> 00:37:35,989
maybe that's good that's a good question

871
00:37:42,489 --> 00:37:40,009
I don't know you know I feel like you're

872
00:37:44,349 --> 00:37:42,499
kind of trying to box here with one arm

873
00:37:51,609 --> 00:37:44,359
tied behind your back which I guess is a

874
00:37:57,549 --> 00:37:51,619
training technique you got a week left

875
00:37:59,559 --> 00:37:57,559
Tyler right but here's the thing it

876
00:38:01,089 --> 00:37:59,569
comes back to me of the extended

877
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:01,099
consciousness and if you get

878
00:38:06,249 --> 00:38:03,440
consciousness wrong then yeah you wind

879
00:38:08,499 --> 00:38:06,259
up with all this silly goofy stuff of

880
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:08,509
what's called what's religion what

881
00:38:12,849 --> 00:38:10,880
spirituality because underlying it there

882
00:38:14,890 --> 00:38:12,859
is no spirituality right I mean there's

883
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:14,900
just a social construct it's just

884
00:38:20,739 --> 00:38:17,930
something that we invented it's not real

885
00:38:23,620 --> 00:38:20,749
it doesn't make any sense it's all

886
00:38:26,859 --> 00:38:23,630
gobbly [\h__\h] until you wrestle the

887
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:26,869
consciousness issue to the ground isn't

888
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:29,690
it it is certainly is to me and

889
00:38:33,819 --> 00:38:32,450
obviously to you too but what about

890
00:38:35,709 --> 00:38:33,829
people just aren't interested in the

891
00:38:38,289 --> 00:38:35,719
consciousness issue and they just want

892
00:38:40,479 --> 00:38:38,299
to explore Scientology as an institution

893
00:38:42,099 --> 00:38:40,489
maybe you know I was just thinking I was

894
00:38:44,589 --> 00:38:42,109
looking at on one of my bookshelves I

895
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:44,599
have a history of European socialism on

896
00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:46,880
my bookshelf that I had reviewed for a

897
00:38:50,259 --> 00:38:48,529
core I forget it was ether course in

898
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:50,269
Western civilization or course in moral

899
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:51,890
and political philosophy but I didn't

900
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:54,079
know much about the subject I got this

901
00:39:00,279 --> 00:38:57,650
very dry clinical disinterested history

902
00:39:03,099 --> 00:39:00,289
of European socialism by some guy at

903
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:03,109
Yale and frankly if that book had been

904
00:39:06,549 --> 00:39:04,729
written because I just wanted to be

905
00:39:09,819 --> 00:39:06,559
informed on the subject if that book had

906
00:39:13,209 --> 00:39:09,829
been written by Joe McCarthy or Karl

907
00:39:14,829 --> 00:39:13,219
Marx or maybe Joseph Stalin I wouldn't

908
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:14,839
have wanted to read it I don't think

909
00:39:20,109 --> 00:39:17,569
because if I really want to if all I

910
00:39:23,579 --> 00:39:20,119
wanted to get for those purposes was a

911
00:39:27,759 --> 00:39:23,589
was a sort of a quick unbiased

912
00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:27,769
disinterested account of socialism in

913
00:39:32,349 --> 00:39:30,529
the and and and I don't know maybe you

914
00:39:34,269 --> 00:39:32,359
don't see the comparison here but again

915
00:39:36,279 --> 00:39:34,279
if somebody just wants to read about the

916
00:39:38,910 --> 00:39:36,289
history of Scientology what happened I

917
00:39:41,140 --> 00:39:38,920
mean how are we gonna get data about

918
00:39:43,479 --> 00:39:41,150
things that we can use to make

919
00:39:46,170 --> 00:39:43,489
evaluations if everybody who's looking

920
00:39:49,860 --> 00:39:46,180
at it has an agenda before

921
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:49,870
right I guess I'd answer your question

922
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:53,650
of why or what's wrong with it kind of

923
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:56,290
from a different perspective and that is

924
00:40:01,800 --> 00:39:58,330
from the philosophy and science

925
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:01,810
perspective since you are a professor of

926
00:40:08,070 --> 00:40:04,570
philosophy so I have up on the screen

927
00:40:11,070 --> 00:40:08,080
the very famous quote from physicist

928
00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:11,080
Stephen Hawking who told a Google

929
00:40:16,740 --> 00:40:13,900
zeitgeist conference that philosophers

930
00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:16,750
have not kept up with science and their

931
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:20,470
art is dead which I think probably did

932
00:40:27,570 --> 00:40:25,570
more for philosophy in terms of giving

933
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:27,580
it a good kick in the butt and in

934
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:29,440
anything that has occurred in the last

935
00:40:35,550 --> 00:40:32,560
20 years but I would just oppose that

936
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:35,560
with the interview that you just helped

937
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:39,090
me on with dr. Donald Hoffman because

938
00:40:44,610 --> 00:40:41,890
physicist Donald Hoffman when he comes

939
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:44,620
out and says well look space-time is

940
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:47,410
doomed and every experiment we've done

941
00:40:54,660 --> 00:40:51,760
with deep deep physics subatomic physics

942
00:40:57,810 --> 00:40:54,670
quantum physics has proven over and over

943
00:41:00,300 --> 00:40:57,820
again that consciousness is fundamental

944
00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:00,310
and we don't have any contradiction to

945
00:41:04,860 --> 00:41:02,800
those experiments then I think this is

946
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:04,870
my conclusion he doesn't say this quite

947
00:41:09,810 --> 00:41:06,160
directly but I think it's a natural

948
00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:09,820
inference is that materialist scientist

949
00:41:14,130 --> 00:41:12,220
and I would add all the social

950
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:14,140
scientists that just follow along in

951
00:41:20,370 --> 00:41:17,650
their wake pretending have not kept up

952
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:20,380
with consciousness research and there

953
00:41:27,630 --> 00:41:23,650
are is dead so that would be my response

954
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:27,640
to you know what you say so you know if

955
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:30,250
you are been an Ohio State University

956
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:32,530
wants to go on and still bilk students

957
00:41:36,330 --> 00:41:34,090
into coming in and paying for those

958
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:36,340
classes giving them phony-baloney

959
00:41:42,210 --> 00:41:39,010
degrees I don't care I mean it doesn't

960
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:42,220
really bother me that much but their art

961
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:45,730
is dead there's nothing to it at the

962
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:48,960
core because they haven't kept up with

963
00:41:53,870 --> 00:41:51,490
consciousness research they and that's

964
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:53,880
where we got to give Hawking credit he

965
00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:56,530
he just put his finger on something you

966
00:41:59,650 --> 00:41:58,480
know if you don't keep up with the

967
00:42:02,740 --> 00:41:59,660
science

968
00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:02,750
then you risk being left behind you risk

969
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:05,510
a deadening of your art so what do you

970
00:42:09,370 --> 00:42:07,010
think I guess you can't you certainly

971
00:42:10,809 --> 00:42:09,380
can't ignore the science but I mean

972
00:42:12,730 --> 00:42:10,819
there's there obviously there's more to

973
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:12,740
reality and more things to consider than

974
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:15,410
just that well hold on because you made

975
00:42:21,279 --> 00:42:17,690
a great point when we were talking about

976
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:21,289
Donna Hoffman and I wanna broaden if I

977
00:42:26,319 --> 00:42:23,839
can our understanding of what we're

978
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:26,329
defining as science and I'm talking

979
00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:29,690
about science as this process this

980
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:33,440
method for moving forward with our

981
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:35,210
knowledge or at least creating the

982
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:36,319
illusion that we're moving forward

983
00:42:39,789 --> 00:42:38,210
because we may not be moving forward at

984
00:42:41,829 --> 00:42:39,799
all and you understand it from a deeper

985
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:41,839
spiritual perspective but in terms of

986
00:42:44,890 --> 00:42:44,390
all the stuff you're talking about bring

987
00:42:50,589 --> 00:42:44,900
data

988
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:50,599
out valid and invalid interpretations of

989
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:53,089
the data I would call all that science

990
00:42:57,250 --> 00:42:55,010
and I would say they're philosophers are

991
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:57,260
doing that kind of science in the same

992
00:43:01,809 --> 00:42:59,359
way that physicists are doing that kind

993
00:43:03,730 --> 00:43:01,819
of science but the caution is still the

994
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:03,740
same if you don't understand

995
00:43:11,799 --> 00:43:08,210
consciousness science then your art is

996
00:43:15,339 --> 00:43:11,809
dead and that is my claim with regards

997
00:43:17,589 --> 00:43:15,349
to you know all these guys who were

998
00:43:20,940 --> 00:43:17,599
talking about it who we're relying on to

999
00:43:23,799 --> 00:43:20,950
give us some kind of view of the world I

1000
00:43:25,930 --> 00:43:23,809
tend to agree with your worldview and

1001
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:25,940
the prominent place that you give

1002
00:43:30,309 --> 00:43:28,730
consciousness studies but then you know

1003
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:30,319
it's kind of like that way they kind of

1004
00:43:34,510 --> 00:43:32,210
felt that way about that the Scientology

1005
00:43:37,779 --> 00:43:34,520
book I mean so how do you how do we how

1006
00:43:38,650 --> 00:43:37,789
do we account for people who just don't

1007
00:43:40,809 --> 00:43:38,660
agree with us

1008
00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:40,819
I guess so you're willing to just say

1009
00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:42,380
well they're just wrong they're deluded

1010
00:43:47,950 --> 00:43:46,190
and I can say that and I guess I do say

1011
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:47,960
that but you know if I was gonna put it

1012
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:50,890
in more polite terms like you're kind of

1013
00:43:58,150 --> 00:43:54,650
asking for I would suggest that if

1014
00:44:01,150 --> 00:43:58,160
you're not engaging with the data in a

1015
00:44:03,970 --> 00:44:01,160
thoughtful way then the value of your

1016
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:03,980
opinion needs to reflect that so it's

1017
00:44:09,460 --> 00:44:06,710
like you know unfortunately after my

1018
00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:09,470
interview with Chris Shelton who I was

1019
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:11,270
wondering what the way if one team of

1020
00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:13,170
the exchange

1021
00:44:16,730 --> 00:44:14,760
and I'll talk more about that but it's

1022
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:16,740
the same thing he sends me these books

1023
00:44:21,110 --> 00:44:18,960
and so we're having this debate about

1024
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:21,120
sigh and alls I have to do is go to the

1025
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:22,890
books and do a quick look inside on

1026
00:44:33,620 --> 00:44:28,740
Amazon Rayden know them no Sheldrick

1027
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:33,630
know so are the books that he sent me by

1028
00:44:40,580 --> 00:44:37,530
these trusted academics hmm are they

1029
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:40,590
engaging with the data clearly they're

1030
00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:45,930
not so can I can I kind of make a cut

1031
00:44:50,270 --> 00:44:47,550
you know I have to cut the team there

1032
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:50,280
can I cut them off the roster I can

1033
00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:52,560
they're just done engaging with the data

1034
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:54,390
and I don't mind people who are at least

1035
00:44:59,240 --> 00:44:57,690
engaging with the data but yeah and that

1036
00:45:01,820 --> 00:44:59,250
that's that's a big issue for me and

1037
00:45:04,370 --> 00:45:01,830
I've often wanted to ask you about that

1038
00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:04,380
do you think that it is possible because

1039
00:45:09,590 --> 00:45:07,350
I gather you don't for somebody who

1040
00:45:12,590 --> 00:45:09,600
really takes a complete comprehensive

1041
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:12,600
and objective look at the data to come

1042
00:45:17,780 --> 00:45:14,640
to to come to a conclusion that is

1043
00:45:19,940 --> 00:45:17,790
different from yours or do you think

1044
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:19,950
that any reasonable sane person who

1045
00:45:25,370 --> 00:45:22,050
looks at that data has to agree with

1046
00:45:27,860 --> 00:45:25,380
Alec secures it's a real question it's a

1047
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:27,870
loaded question but I think how we how

1048
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:30,890
we all kind of deal with this stuff is

1049
00:45:39,830 --> 00:45:35,760
we have certain litmus tests mmm that we

1050
00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:39,840
develop yeah like I shared those with

1051
00:45:46,190 --> 00:45:42,180
people but I was never into conspiracies

1052
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:46,200
at all before doing this show and it was

1053
00:45:51,710 --> 00:45:48,710
the conspiracy of science and

1054
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,720
consciousness in particular and this

1055
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:53,760
this conspiracy that you are a

1056
00:45:57,610 --> 00:45:55,410
biological robot and a meaningless

1057
00:46:00,650 --> 00:45:57,620
universe and how that meme gets

1058
00:46:02,660 --> 00:46:00,660
perpetuated in the face of all the data

1059
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:02,670
against it it just let me said wait

1060
00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:05,910
there's something more going on here

1061
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:09,000
then white edges explanation that

1062
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:10,560
they're just really good guys that got

1063
00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:13,110
something wrong so I started looking at

1064
00:46:20,210 --> 00:46:16,800
other areas where people saw the same

1065
00:46:22,580 --> 00:46:20,220
thing and conspiracy research is one of

1066
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:22,590
it so I started with a really tame one I

1067
00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:26,160
started with JFK

1068
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:28,440
JFK assassination if people don't know

1069
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:29,940
this a lot of people still throw it

1070
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:32,010
because I've still people to say no not

1071
00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:35,850
assassin Lee Harvey Oswald that just so

1072
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:37,830
you know folks that is not the official

1073
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:39,290
conclusion of the United States

1074
00:46:44,420 --> 00:46:40,650
government

1075
00:46:47,150 --> 00:46:44,430
the final subcommittee investigating the

1076
00:46:48,410 --> 00:46:47,160
assassination came to the conclusion not

1077
00:46:49,970 --> 00:46:48,420
that they should be the ultimate

1078
00:46:52,130 --> 00:46:49,980
authority because whether or not in my

1079
00:46:55,550 --> 00:46:52,140
opinion but even they came to the

1080
00:46:58,340 --> 00:46:55,560
conclusion that it was a conspiracy and

1081
00:47:01,880 --> 00:46:58,350
that that was that the lone nut'

1082
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:01,890
assassin thing didn't hold so I look at

1083
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:05,130
my wat so so that is a litmus test for

1084
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:08,250
me when I talked to someone and they say

1085
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:11,760
oh no I seen it you know no it's nothing

1086
00:47:16,460 --> 00:47:14,000
to it it's lone nut' assassin I'm like

1087
00:47:18,380 --> 00:47:16,470
you haven't engaged with the data I'm

1088
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:18,390
watched probably more of it than I

1089
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:20,160
should have the same thing with like

1090
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:23,280
9/11 I hate to say yeah I know that

1091
00:47:28,070 --> 00:47:26,490
triggers a lot of people but 9/11 you

1092
00:47:29,630 --> 00:47:28,080
know I just read across the Chi the

1093
00:47:31,550 --> 00:47:29,640
other day and we're talking we're having

1094
00:47:33,770 --> 00:47:31,560
a good conversation and he's telling me

1095
00:47:38,150 --> 00:47:33,780
how he just finished his 700 page book

1096
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:38,160
on 9/11 that's uh interesting so what do

1097
00:47:44,060 --> 00:47:40,770
you think about building seven and he

1098
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:44,070
goes what do you mean I go you don't

1099
00:47:49,310 --> 00:47:46,170
know building seven so you don't know

1100
00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:49,320
the 47-story steel-framed building that

1101
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:51,780
wasn't hit by any debris and is the only

1102
00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:55,310
building in history to ever fall from

1103
00:47:59,690 --> 00:47:58,290
office furniture fire again I don't care

1104
00:48:01,700 --> 00:47:59,700
what's your conclusion at this point I

1105
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:01,710
don't care what your conclusion is but

1106
00:48:06,230 --> 00:48:04,290
if you don't know that if you don't

1107
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:06,240
understand that data you haven't dealt

1108
00:48:11,050 --> 00:48:08,310
with it if you haven't said well I think

1109
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:11,060
the NIST report which they filed as a

1110
00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:13,920
top secret in terms of their modeling in

1111
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:16,680
the face of other academics who reported

1112
00:48:21,230 --> 00:48:19,200
it openly their model of it yeah I would

1113
00:48:24,230 --> 00:48:21,240
trust that or if you say well I don't

1114
00:48:27,380 --> 00:48:24,240
explain why the 9/11 Commission makes no

1115
00:48:30,170 --> 00:48:27,390
mention of it yes if you're not engaged

1116
00:48:32,330 --> 00:48:30,180
with that data then do we really have

1117
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:32,340
anything to talk about here so that's

1118
00:48:39,110 --> 00:48:35,130
how I feel to a certain extent about

1119
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:39,120
these guys you know I mean yeah if you

1120
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:40,000
haven't in

1121
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:42,490
aged with the data at that point and I

1122
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:44,650
have to say everyone on this screen I'm

1123
00:48:49,470 --> 00:48:46,810
talking about Jeff rifle gregory shushan

1124
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:49,480
brian hayden dr. hugh urban they have

1125
00:48:54,990 --> 00:48:52,240
engaged with it in it so in that case

1126
00:48:57,300 --> 00:48:55,000
it's kind of this second point that we

1127
00:48:59,040 --> 00:48:57,310
haven't really dealt with but I'm trying

1128
00:49:01,410 --> 00:48:59,050
to drag you into kind of a conspiracy

1129
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:01,420
thing is because what I hear I'm saying

1130
00:49:07,350 --> 00:49:04,720
is you know I've tried to engage with it

1131
00:49:11,220 --> 00:49:07,360
but I'm not really allowed to have it

1132
00:49:13,770 --> 00:49:11,230
because my institution in there academia

1133
00:49:16,730 --> 00:49:13,780
in general really won't let me engage me

1134
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:16,740
yeah I thought I wonder though - and

1135
00:49:21,210 --> 00:49:18,910
this is what one of the one of the

1136
00:49:25,410 --> 00:49:21,220
things I a bunch of questions I had for

1137
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:25,420
you I mean one of which was um what if

1138
00:49:30,420 --> 00:49:27,970
Hugh Urban was to come to a conclusion

1139
00:49:32,370 --> 00:49:30,430
was to actually have the moral fortitude

1140
00:49:34,530 --> 00:49:32,380
or whatever to actually commit himself

1141
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:34,540
to a conclusion regarding what

1142
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:37,690
Scientology and his history of it tells

1143
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:39,040
us about the nature of consciousness

1144
00:49:43,980 --> 00:49:41,530
what would that be and then the other

1145
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:43,990
one is a larger point a larger question

1146
00:49:50,070 --> 00:49:47,170
that I had for you which is what does

1147
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,080
all of this stuff because the more I

1148
00:49:53,610 --> 00:49:52,000
listen to skeptic oh and engage with the

1149
00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:53,620
evidence that's presented on it and the

1150
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:56,110
sources that your your people give and

1151
00:50:00,720 --> 00:49:58,210
that you refer people to I'm starting to

1152
00:50:02,580 --> 00:50:00,730
see these connections myself and I'm

1153
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:02,590
wondering if there is some larger

1154
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:06,490
pattern that you can draw a conclusion

1155
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:09,760
from I I get what you're saying yeah I

1156
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:12,160
would I would really take a more

1157
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:14,290
measured approach much like you did in

1158
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:18,190
your polygraph testimony which is to say

1159
00:50:23,070 --> 00:50:20,890
that I don't know and I don't have to

1160
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:23,080
know and in order to falsify or point

1161
00:50:26,910 --> 00:50:24,970
out the weaknesses in someone else's

1162
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:26,920
argument doesn't mean that I have to

1163
00:50:32,430 --> 00:50:29,530
present a solid case that I know

1164
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:32,440
everything and in terms of what I wanted

1165
00:50:37,050 --> 00:50:35,890
from Hugh urban and I'm really picking

1166
00:50:39,180 --> 00:50:37,060
on Hugh ever been and thrown him under

1167
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:39,190
well you can come out that way because

1168
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:42,850
yeah I respect the guy and and you know

1169
00:50:47,910 --> 00:50:44,530
I also head up on the screen you know

1170
00:50:49,290 --> 00:50:47,920
Brian Hayden whom a lot of times I it

1171
00:50:51,210 --> 00:50:49,300
sounds like I'm being negative on these

1172
00:50:52,990 --> 00:50:51,220
people I have a ton of respect for Brian

1173
00:50:54,450 --> 00:50:53,000
Hayden I learned a time from

1174
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:54,460
iron Haden who's done this

1175
00:51:01,300 --> 00:50:58,130
cross-cultural analysis of this kind of

1176
00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:01,310
self aggrandizement thing so he said hey

1177
00:51:08,170 --> 00:51:05,510
when I look at these cultures and I find

1178
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:08,180
the kind I don't I'm gonna I don't want

1179
00:51:12,220 --> 00:51:10,160
to throw the wrong Native American tribe

1180
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:12,230
under the bus so I'm not even me to say

1181
00:51:16,420 --> 00:51:14,000
but this one tribe who had a chief who

1182
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:16,430
said hey pal got a good deal for you

1183
00:51:20,260 --> 00:51:18,170
tell you what let me sleep with your

1184
00:51:23,020 --> 00:51:20,270
wife and you know I'm talking to the

1185
00:51:26,650 --> 00:51:23,030
gods so I could kind of put in a good

1186
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:26,660
word for you if you let me do that and

1187
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:28,850
they said that you should really let me

1188
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:31,910
do that so he's saying hey does this

1189
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:34,130
look legit to you it doesn't look legit

1190
00:51:40,750 --> 00:51:35,930
to me so therefore we should be

1191
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:40,760
skeptical of all the claims that are

1192
00:51:45,460 --> 00:51:43,520
being made about interactions with the

1193
00:51:48,370 --> 00:51:45,470
extent in consciousness realm I say

1194
00:51:49,930 --> 00:51:48,380
right on to that or you know dr. gregory

1195
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:49,940
shushan who i have up on the screen who

1196
00:51:54,370 --> 00:51:51,530
does a cross-cultural analysis of

1197
00:51:57,550 --> 00:51:54,380
near-death experience and says hey there

1198
00:52:00,250 --> 00:51:57,560
are these very significant differences

1199
00:52:03,340 --> 00:52:00,260
in how NDEs are understood across

1200
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:03,350
cultures but I'm kind of burying the

1201
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:05,570
point because what I really wanted Hugh

1202
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:09,920
Urban to say is that this burden of

1203
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:13,040
proof thing which I come back to in the

1204
00:52:18,190 --> 00:52:16,250
analogy I always not even analogy the

1205
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:18,200
comparison I always make is to the

1206
00:52:23,740 --> 00:52:21,290
Catholic Church and I always relate it

1207
00:52:27,490 --> 00:52:23,750
back to the fall of Arthur Anderson

1208
00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:27,500
which it was the largest economy and was

1209
00:52:31,540 --> 00:52:30,110
asked to close its doors or did have to

1210
00:52:35,410 --> 00:52:31,550
close his doors and send everyone home

1211
00:52:37,180 --> 00:52:35,420
and many people lost millions of dollars

1212
00:52:38,830 --> 00:52:37,190
in 401ks and lives were destroyed but

1213
00:52:42,670 --> 00:52:38,840
they said hey you had a responsibility a

1214
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:42,680
public fiduciary responsibility to hold

1215
00:52:47,710 --> 00:52:46,160
this trust you so violated that that

1216
00:52:48,580 --> 00:52:47,720
Arthur Andersen you shouldn't be in

1217
00:52:50,380 --> 00:52:48,590
business anymore

1218
00:52:51,790 --> 00:52:50,390
the same is true of the Catholic Church

1219
00:52:54,670 --> 00:52:51,800
Catholic Church should just be shut down

1220
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:54,680
without making any judgment on whether

1221
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:56,570
it's done good things or it's charities

1222
00:53:01,270 --> 00:52:58,640
around the world you just would say you

1223
00:53:03,820 --> 00:53:01,280
had a certain responsibility you've

1224
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:03,830
failed that responsibility clearly you

1225
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:05,730
don't need to exist anymore

1226
00:53:11,390 --> 00:53:08,730
as new religious movement or an old

1227
00:53:13,820 --> 00:53:11,400
religious mythology so that's what I

1228
00:53:18,740 --> 00:53:13,830
want to humor being to say is to say you

1229
00:53:21,590 --> 00:53:18,750
know based on the evidence at hand the

1230
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:21,600
burden of proof would be on Scientology

1231
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:24,720
to clearly demonstrate that it is not a

1232
00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:27,570
destructive cult that destroys people's

1233
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:32,460
lives and until they can overcome that

1234
00:53:38,060 --> 00:53:34,800
burden of proof then we should regard

1235
00:53:40,010 --> 00:53:38,070
them as a cult because we do understand

1236
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:40,020
that cults can be dangerous and they

1237
00:53:44,180 --> 00:53:42,330
have not met the standard where which

1238
00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:44,190
but there's evidence that suggests they

1239
00:53:48,590 --> 00:53:46,020
are dangers called and we don't have

1240
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:48,600
enough evidence to overcome that and I

1241
00:53:54,830 --> 00:53:52,890
as a trusted academic who's sorted

1242
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:54,840
through the data I have to take a

1243
00:53:59,540 --> 00:53:57,570
position and that's the position I take

1244
00:54:03,860 --> 00:53:59,550
and I think the reason he doesn't take

1245
00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:03,870
that position is because of the box that

1246
00:54:12,050 --> 00:54:07,520
he's in and it is that box that humanist

1247
00:54:14,270 --> 00:54:12,060
atheist academia has created and they

1248
00:54:17,420 --> 00:54:14,280
shouldn't be allowed to comfortably live

1249
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:17,430
inside that box I actually agree with

1250
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:20,610
all that except I is that box the

1251
00:54:26,450 --> 00:54:22,800
results of their humanist atheist

1252
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:26,460
materialist assumptions suppose they you

1253
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:27,930
know what I mean I mean suppose suppose

1254
00:54:34,430 --> 00:54:31,920
academia had deeply spiritual deeply

1255
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:34,440
spiritual assumptions as opposed to

1256
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:37,710
materialistic ones we'll never know but

1257
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:40,530
as our friend Stephen Hawking points out

1258
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:44,490
it you know there art is dead because

1259
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:47,520
they haven't kept up with the science if

1260
00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:49,920
you will in this broader term so until

1261
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:53,040
you tackle that problem and understand

1262
00:54:57,860 --> 00:54:55,260
that consciousness isn't an illusion

1263
00:54:59,900 --> 00:54:57,870
until you grapple with that you know we

1264
00:55:01,970 --> 00:54:59,910
won't know you know so it's not that

1265
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:01,980
you're it's not that they're humanists

1266
00:55:05,630 --> 00:55:03,510
it's not that they're atheist

1267
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:05,640
it's the assumptions they're making

1268
00:55:11,870 --> 00:55:09,680
based on that philosophy yeah yeah I I

1269
00:55:13,390 --> 00:55:11,880
agree with you - I mean that yeah

1270
00:55:16,450 --> 00:55:13,400
atheism and

1271
00:55:18,250 --> 00:55:16,460
and scientism I don't an atheist and per

1272
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:18,260
se but I mean I know what you mean that

1273
00:55:22,420 --> 00:55:20,090
the biological robot in a meaningless

1274
00:55:24,790 --> 00:55:22,430
universe worldview is sort of the

1275
00:55:28,780 --> 00:55:24,800
assumption of our intellectual culture I

1276
00:55:32,470 --> 00:55:28,790
didn't ask though whether every religion

1277
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:32,480
then would be a cult every organization

1278
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:34,310
I mean as my old thought you know

1279
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:36,250
influential philosopher Krishnamurti

1280
00:55:43,090 --> 00:55:39,920
would note would probably insist every

1281
00:55:45,490 --> 00:55:43,100
religion or and every institution is is

1282
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:45,500
I guess a cult as you would understand

1283
00:55:50,020 --> 00:55:47,450
it as you would define it government

1284
00:55:52,450 --> 00:55:50,030
certainly are I suppose and in terms of

1285
00:55:54,910 --> 00:55:52,460
what they do the secrecy and the harm

1286
00:55:57,130 --> 00:55:54,920
that they caused so what do we do then I

1287
00:55:59,320 --> 00:55:57,140
mean you know what I mean if we're gonna

1288
00:56:00,730 --> 00:55:59,330
hold Scientology accountable but the

1289
00:56:03,190 --> 00:56:00,740
Catholic Church I mean where do you

1290
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:03,200
where do you stop and is it possible is

1291
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:04,730
it possible to have an organization

1292
00:56:10,210 --> 00:56:08,210
without it being all the things

1293
00:56:12,820 --> 00:56:10,220
eventually that you don't like about

1294
00:56:14,830 --> 00:56:12,830
Scientology yeah I mean this is now

1295
00:56:16,660 --> 00:56:14,840
getting to the question at hand where we

1296
00:56:21,370 --> 00:56:16,670
can kind of pretend that we have this

1297
00:56:23,500 --> 00:56:21,380
kind of master control of everything

1298
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:23,510
which we don't but until somebody kicks

1299
00:56:28,210 --> 00:56:25,610
off the discussion and no one can kick

1300
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:28,220
off the discussion so I I think though

1301
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:30,050
embedded in that I would phrase it

1302
00:56:38,140 --> 00:56:33,410
slightly differently the the where do we

1303
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:38,150
stop question we don't stop no you keep

1304
00:56:43,330 --> 00:56:40,640
asking that question over and over again

1305
00:56:46,990 --> 00:56:43,340
do you stop with the Catholic Church no

1306
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:47,000
do you stop with the LDS Church no do

1307
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:49,520
you stop with the Baptist Church no you

1308
00:56:54,970 --> 00:56:52,880
keep asking the same question you keep

1309
00:56:58,570 --> 00:56:54,980
saying and that's why I flashed up on

1310
00:57:01,120 --> 00:56:58,580
the screen this little snippet I pulled

1311
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:01,130
from an interview you did and this was

1312
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:04,370
your point of moral responsibility and

1313
00:57:11,890 --> 00:57:07,730
criminal culpability somewhere in there

1314
00:57:14,620 --> 00:57:11,900
I think are the makings of a new way of

1315
00:57:19,180 --> 00:57:14,630
trying to understand of trying to look

1316
00:57:22,810 --> 00:57:19,190
at spirituality as it becomes

1317
00:57:26,530 --> 00:57:22,820
institutionalized and giving us a real

1318
00:57:29,770 --> 00:57:26,540
important meaningful look at it rather

1319
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:29,780
than just this hmm fairytale meaningless

1320
00:57:35,110 --> 00:57:33,040
in in in some ways completely

1321
00:57:37,090 --> 00:57:35,120
conspiratorial you know I mean I don't

1322
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:37,100
know what were to make a few urban but

1323
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:40,130
is he is he doing incredible disservice

1324
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:44,210
to people who have been engaged in a

1325
00:57:50,650 --> 00:57:47,090
dangerous cult that is Scientology I

1326
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:50,660
could make the case that he is and even

1327
00:57:55,570 --> 00:57:52,610
though you know we could say well gosh

1328
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:55,580
who would don't we need someone who's

1329
00:58:00,370 --> 00:57:58,010
you know writes a nice book out there

1330
00:58:03,010 --> 00:58:00,380
that gives a balanced perspective well

1331
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:03,020
that may be true but we have to weigh

1332
00:58:10,030 --> 00:58:07,510
that against what that means to

1333
00:58:12,250 --> 00:58:10,040
respecting the rights of victims who

1334
00:58:16,090 --> 00:58:12,260
have been victimized by a dangerous cult

1335
00:58:18,460 --> 00:58:16,100
so I think it this is a question that we

1336
00:58:20,020 --> 00:58:18,470
have to ask and I would see and I know

1337
00:58:21,790 --> 00:58:20,030
you're calm playing devil's advocate and

1338
00:58:24,070 --> 00:58:21,800
that's why I love it because it's it's

1339
00:58:25,780 --> 00:58:24,080
it's hard for you but I think like where

1340
00:58:26,380 --> 00:58:25,790
you're coming from with the Krishnamurti

1341
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:26,390
stuff

1342
00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:29,810
yeah he'll yes I mean that's who you are

1343
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:31,520
and that's what where you're coming from

1344
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:34,850
so don't you do you agree rich don't you

1345
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:40,010
agree yeah I guess so I mean oh yeah I

1346
00:58:45,790 --> 00:58:42,710
mean I on the other hand I mean I don't

1347
00:58:47,410 --> 00:58:45,800
know I mean um if we shut down the

1348
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:47,420
Catholic Church as a criminal

1349
00:58:50,890 --> 00:58:48,410
organization

1350
00:58:53,050 --> 00:58:50,900
besides that being you know not just not

1351
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:53,060
feasible well maybe it is I mean III

1352
00:58:59,230 --> 00:58:57,650
suppose um you know or Scientology I

1353
00:59:01,930 --> 00:58:59,240
mean be you know and the legal

1354
00:59:03,490 --> 00:59:01,940
ramifications of not the separation of

1355
00:59:05,260 --> 00:59:03,500
church and state that I suppose it would

1356
00:59:06,820 --> 00:59:05,270
raise and all that kind of stuff would

1357
00:59:09,580 --> 00:59:06,830
it be a good thing to do I mean what

1358
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:09,590
would happen to religions what shouldn't

1359
00:59:15,940 --> 00:59:13,130
concern ourselves with whether it's a

1360
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:15,950
good thing to do we should current CERN

1361
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:17,810
ourselves with whether it's the right

1362
00:59:23,650 --> 00:59:21,440
thing to do and that's why I you know

1363
00:59:27,190 --> 00:59:23,660
love just your little snippet there of

1364
00:59:30,810 --> 00:59:27,200
moral responsibility and criminal

1365
00:59:32,230 --> 00:59:30,820
culpability and I think it's not an

1366
00:59:36,190 --> 00:59:32,240
either/or thing

1367
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:36,200
it's a bold thing so if you put yourself

1368
00:59:40,340 --> 00:59:37,890
out there

1369
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:40,350
as a religious institution then you're

1370
00:59:45,370 --> 00:59:42,240
putting yourself out there as a

1371
00:59:48,170 --> 00:59:45,380
spiritual institution and then you're

1372
00:59:50,870 --> 00:59:48,180
claiming to the public that you are

1373
00:59:53,810 --> 00:59:50,880
upholding a certain more responsibility

1374
00:59:56,780 --> 00:59:53,820
and certainly but criminal culpability

1375
01:00:00,320 --> 00:59:56,790
and to the extent that you don't measure

1376
01:00:02,420 --> 01:00:00,330
up I mean we don't have the power and

1377
01:00:04,610 --> 01:00:02,430
hue urban doesn't have the power and

1378
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:04,620
Jeff [\h__\h] doesn't have the power to

1379
01:00:08,530 --> 01:00:07,050
shut down the Catholic Church but they

1380
01:00:13,580 --> 01:00:08,540
do have the power to take a

1381
01:00:16,850 --> 01:00:13,590
well-reasoned position and just what

1382
01:00:19,610 --> 01:00:16,860
that is in the same way that I so you

1383
01:00:22,940 --> 01:00:19,620
know appreciate when Rupert Sheldrake is

1384
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:22,950
able to say Richard Wiseman was

1385
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:25,890
intentionally deceptive in the way he

1386
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:28,290
carried out research with me that

1387
01:00:36,500 --> 01:00:32,960
clarifies things we need that clarity in

1388
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:36,510
religious studies comparative religions

1389
01:00:42,140 --> 01:00:39,210
are those phony-baloney departments in

1390
01:00:44,750 --> 01:00:42,150
the social sciences I'd yeah I mean I

1391
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:44,760
can't put agree you win Melik securest I

1392
01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:47,040
give up I know I did I didn't want to

1393
01:00:51,260 --> 01:00:48,510
ask you though I mean if it's if it's

1394
01:00:53,630 --> 01:00:51,270
okay um do you think that the the

1395
01:00:55,610 --> 01:00:53,640
contemporary and a lot of feminist

1396
01:00:57,710 --> 01:00:55,620
philosophers and post modernists sort of

1397
01:01:01,550 --> 01:00:57,720
have made this claim that the sort of

1398
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:01,560
this ideal of the clinically detached

1399
01:01:07,730 --> 01:01:04,490
critically detached objective impartial

1400
01:01:11,420 --> 01:01:07,740
unbiased observer fly-on-the-wall God's

1401
01:01:13,070 --> 01:01:11,430
eye view of a situation who doesn't make

1402
01:01:15,170 --> 01:01:13,080
value judgments or anything like that

1403
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:15,180
which is that really and then the

1404
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:16,770
intellectual world is the scholarly

1405
01:01:21,260 --> 01:01:19,170
ideal right especially in the social

1406
01:01:24,470 --> 01:01:21,270
sciences and certainly in philosophy do

1407
01:01:28,010 --> 01:01:24,480
you think that that has put those people

1408
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:28,020
unwittingly in the service of forces

1409
01:01:34,610 --> 01:01:31,770
that are very biased but can hide behind

1410
01:01:37,490 --> 01:01:34,620
that and can able them to hide behind

1411
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:37,500
that veneer of supposed objectivity to

1412
01:01:43,790 --> 01:01:41,490
actually push an agenda I'm gonna answer

1413
01:01:45,830 --> 01:01:43,800
a question with another question and

1414
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:45,840
that is the questions that's that's

1415
01:01:51,380 --> 01:01:48,810
raised by another person that you

1416
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:51,390
greatly admire and for good

1417
01:01:56,420 --> 01:01:53,760
because I admire him as well and that's

1418
01:01:58,640 --> 01:01:56,430
tick not Han and the quote that I was

1419
01:02:02,630 --> 01:01:58,650
sharing with folks who are watching it

1420
01:02:05,630 --> 01:02:02,640
is we run during the daytime we run

1421
01:02:08,809 --> 01:02:05,640
during our sleep we do not know how to

1422
01:02:11,599 --> 01:02:08,819
stop when we can look deeply into the

1423
01:02:16,069 --> 01:02:11,609
present moment we can look deeply into

1424
01:02:19,549 --> 01:02:16,079
our true nature and we can discover the

1425
01:02:22,099 --> 01:02:19,559
ultimate dimension and the reason I

1426
01:02:28,599 --> 01:02:22,109
think that quote is so significant is

1427
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:28,609
because it gets at the core question of

1428
01:02:36,529 --> 01:02:32,130
spirituality that we've so lost in all

1429
01:02:39,049 --> 01:02:36,539
this nonsense and that is is there an

1430
01:02:42,079 --> 01:02:39,059
ultimate dimension to be discovered

1431
01:02:44,839 --> 01:02:42,089
what could we know about that ultimate

1432
01:02:47,359 --> 01:02:44,849
dimension how would we interact with

1433
01:02:49,670 --> 01:02:47,369
that ultimate dimension so now I'm

1434
01:02:51,650 --> 01:02:49,680
substituting ultimate dimension and the

1435
01:02:54,339 --> 01:02:51,660
way that I normally talk about extended

1436
01:02:57,559 --> 01:02:54,349
consciousness and I'm suggesting that

1437
01:03:00,349 --> 01:02:57,569
what the beauty and the power of what

1438
01:03:03,170 --> 01:03:00,359
tich not Han and so many others that

1439
01:03:06,079 --> 01:03:03,180
I've talked about on this show the power

1440
01:03:09,170 --> 01:03:06,089
of what they're doing is they're they're

1441
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:09,180
they're misunderstood as being talking

1442
01:03:13,279 --> 01:03:11,119
about some airy-fairy

1443
01:03:16,730 --> 01:03:13,289
philosophical [\h__\h] they're saying no

1444
01:03:19,490 --> 01:03:16,740
there really is another dimension out

1445
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:19,500
there there is another energy out there

1446
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:22,170
there is another reality and if we don't

1447
01:03:27,740 --> 01:03:25,170
approach it or at least ask that as a

1448
01:03:30,740 --> 01:03:27,750
question we'll never be able to answer

1449
01:03:33,499 --> 01:03:30,750
the question that that you asked so I

1450
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:33,509
think that has to be on the table yeah I

1451
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:37,890
agree and and and do you think that some

1452
01:03:42,370 --> 01:03:39,599
are all this stuff from biological

1453
01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:42,380
robots on a meaningless universe

1454
01:03:48,980 --> 01:03:46,049
philosophy to the distractions of our

1455
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:48,990
commercial culture and the propaganda is

1456
01:03:53,390 --> 01:03:51,210
infotainment nature of our media and

1457
01:03:59,539 --> 01:03:53,400
everything else do you think that those

1458
01:04:00,890 --> 01:03:59,549
are designed to prevent us from because

1459
01:04:02,990 --> 01:04:00,900
this really gets the heart of whether

1460
01:04:04,670 --> 01:04:03,000
this is how much of it how deeply does

1461
01:04:05,260 --> 01:04:04,680
this sort of conspiracy go do you think

1462
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:05,270
these things

1463
01:04:11,140 --> 01:04:08,000
are deliberately designed to prevent us

1464
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:11,150
from engaging that ultimate dimension

1465
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:13,970
that thick not on talks about let me

1466
01:04:19,210 --> 01:04:16,610
turn that around and ask you do you

1467
01:04:20,110 --> 01:04:19,220
think that is a possibility that we need

1468
01:04:24,100 --> 01:04:20,120
to consider

1469
01:04:25,930 --> 01:04:24,110
I'm chief more than if it's even yeah I

1470
01:04:28,990 --> 01:04:25,940
mean if it's even possible it's the most

1471
01:04:30,700 --> 01:04:29,000
important it seems to me that it is the

1472
01:04:33,310 --> 01:04:30,710
most important thing we need to consider

1473
01:04:35,590 --> 01:04:33,320
and what that well besides the nature of

1474
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:35,600
this ultimate dimension itself which I

1475
01:04:39,070 --> 01:04:37,010
guess is the most important thing to

1476
01:04:41,770 --> 01:04:39,080
consider but but why are we being

1477
01:04:45,220 --> 01:04:41,780
prevented from from attaining that and

1478
01:04:48,790 --> 01:04:45,230
even worse are there forces that are

1479
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:48,800
deliberately trying to distract us from

1480
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:51,170
that because of the way they can benefit

1481
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:53,090
from it now I can see where that would

1482
01:04:57,850 --> 01:04:55,610
be the case in the academic world and in

1483
01:04:59,470 --> 01:04:57,860
the commercial world just because maybe

1484
01:05:01,660 --> 01:04:59,480
I don't know if those people have that

1485
01:05:03,130 --> 01:05:01,670
profound view of reality

1486
01:05:05,530 --> 01:05:03,140
they just know if you keep them

1487
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:05,540
distracted and addicted and and and and

1488
01:05:08,860 --> 01:05:07,850
superficial go by and that's all we

1489
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:08,870
really give it down about we haven't

1490
01:05:12,250 --> 01:05:10,370
even thought about anything you deeper

1491
01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:12,260
than that and then the academic world we

1492
01:05:16,210 --> 01:05:14,240
keep them scared and conformist and

1493
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:16,220
afraid to really do any original

1494
01:05:19,660 --> 01:05:18,530
thinking but just mimic the jargon that

1495
01:05:21,670 --> 01:05:19,670
we approve of

1496
01:05:23,110 --> 01:05:21,680
it'll make it'll keep us in power and

1497
01:05:25,660 --> 01:05:23,120
argue did it contribute to our

1498
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:25,670
prestigious dollars but is there

1499
01:05:32,590 --> 01:05:27,530
something and this is what I mean and

1500
01:05:35,380 --> 01:05:32,600
truly this is I come to you as a as a

1501
01:05:37,270 --> 01:05:35,390
sage in this dimension of existence

1502
01:05:39,460 --> 01:05:37,280
because you've really and I really mean

1503
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:39,470
that in a serious tone because you've

1504
01:05:44,890 --> 01:05:41,690
devoted your you know a good part of

1505
01:05:47,230 --> 01:05:44,900
your life now to really um examining

1506
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:47,240
that on a level and in a way that that

1507
01:05:51,790 --> 01:05:49,850
just said nobody else is doing it so

1508
01:05:54,250 --> 01:05:51,800
okay what I'm asking is in this

1509
01:05:55,660 --> 01:05:54,260
long-winded way is what do you think I

1510
01:05:59,970 --> 01:05:55,670
mean how do you how deep is the

1511
01:06:02,200 --> 01:05:59,980
conspiracy in your opinion is it beyond

1512
01:06:07,390 --> 01:06:02,210
serious this is great because I'm really

1513
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:07,400
sucking you in now because because this

1514
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:10,490
larger project that I wanted to get you

1515
01:06:16,930 --> 01:06:12,410
to help me with

1516
01:06:20,890 --> 01:06:16,940
is answering the question of evil and

1517
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:20,900
not for the sake of evil but because in

1518
01:06:25,539 --> 01:06:22,910
the same way that if you get

1519
01:06:28,839 --> 01:06:25,549
consciousness wrong then you can't get

1520
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:28,849
science right now if you get evil wrong

1521
01:06:36,099 --> 01:06:32,690
then you can't get consciousness right

1522
01:06:38,380 --> 01:06:36,109
or extended consciousness right so the

1523
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:38,390
tricky part that you're alluding to and

1524
01:06:46,259 --> 01:06:40,130
your phrasing it as a question because

1525
01:06:50,079 --> 01:06:46,269
you're a smoother dog I don't know I

1526
01:06:52,299 --> 01:06:50,089
think based on my little bit of

1527
01:06:53,079 --> 01:06:52,309
investigation into who you are in your

1528
01:06:55,870 --> 01:06:53,089
philosophy

1529
01:06:58,779 --> 01:06:55,880
that you have a strong inclination and

1530
01:07:02,980 --> 01:06:58,789
it that really I think speaks to this

1531
01:07:05,890 --> 01:07:02,990
broader question of luciferianism and

1532
01:07:07,599 --> 01:07:05,900
you know do do what thou wilt and is

1533
01:07:09,849 --> 01:07:07,609
there anything wrong with that and in

1534
01:07:11,890 --> 01:07:09,859
particular when we look at our larger

1535
01:07:14,289 --> 01:07:11,900
culture and say that our culture is

1536
01:07:16,329 --> 01:07:14,299
certainly a reflection of that value

1537
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:16,339
system we all embrace that is there

1538
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:18,710
anything wrong with that so that's a

1539
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:22,880
very I think unclear middle ground but

1540
01:07:29,289 --> 01:07:26,210
where I've gone and I've again folks

1541
01:07:31,839 --> 01:07:29,299
I've pumped a lot of interviews Rich's

1542
01:07:34,299 --> 01:07:31,849
way and he's been so generous with his

1543
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:34,309
time to review these and talk to me

1544
01:07:39,130 --> 01:07:36,650
about it engage in email conversations

1545
01:07:42,519 --> 01:07:39,140
so well I am trying to pull them into a

1546
01:07:44,589 --> 01:07:42,529
bigger project on this is that I've kind

1547
01:07:49,930 --> 01:07:44,599
of gone to the extreme and I've said

1548
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:49,940
let's let's kind of clear up the the the

1549
01:07:54,249 --> 01:07:52,130
smoke and the mirrors because I just had

1550
01:07:55,509 --> 01:07:54,259
a post from a guy I really like friend

1551
01:07:57,370 --> 01:07:55,519
of mine Mike Patterson who's on The

1552
01:07:58,930 --> 01:07:57,380
Skeptical forum we're kind of chatting

1553
01:08:02,589 --> 01:07:58,940
about good and evil and he goes hey man

1554
01:08:05,049 --> 01:08:02,599
I think the catch and release of you

1555
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:05,059
know brownies in the brook of trout all

1556
01:08:07,839 --> 01:08:06,170
right you know that's good

1557
01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:07,849
he well why do you want to traumatize

1558
01:08:12,670 --> 01:08:10,190
that fish and stuff like that I'm like

1559
01:08:15,609 --> 01:08:12,680
okay I kind of get that it doesn't

1560
01:08:20,079 --> 01:08:15,619
really reach my level of evil in the

1561
01:08:22,269 --> 01:08:20,089
same way it does for hanukkah Lucas and

1562
01:08:26,090 --> 01:08:22,279
it was sold by her mother at six years

1563
01:08:28,580 --> 01:08:26,100
old into a sex cult in Belgium who

1564
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:28,590
we later find out was engaging in

1565
01:08:34,660 --> 01:08:31,050
satanic practices whatever you make of

1566
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:34,670
that and was just repeatedly unbel

1567
01:08:40,460 --> 01:08:38,640
unthinkably abused and raped and just

1568
01:08:42,140 --> 01:08:40,470
tortured to the point where they were

1569
01:08:45,140 --> 01:08:42,150
going to kill her and she was on this

1570
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:45,150
chopping block that was soaked in the

1571
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:47,730
blood of hundreds of kids they had

1572
01:08:54,980 --> 01:08:52,530
already murdered and only by luck if you

1573
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:54,990
want to call it that she spared by one

1574
01:09:00,020 --> 01:08:57,210
of the people in the call to actually

1575
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:00,030
gets her out and that person later pays

1576
01:09:05,480 --> 01:09:02,730
for it with their life so you think

1577
01:09:06,530 --> 01:09:05,490
folks if there's still our doubters I

1578
01:09:07,490 --> 01:09:06,540
haven't heard from people who've

1579
01:09:09,500 --> 01:09:07,500
listened to that interview because I

1580
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:09,510
haven't published it yet but if you

1581
01:09:14,140 --> 01:09:11,970
think there's any doubt to her story if

1582
01:09:17,450 --> 01:09:14,150
you think she's making all this up I

1583
01:09:19,910 --> 01:09:17,460
really encourage you to investigate that

1584
01:09:22,550 --> 01:09:19,920
fully and see if you can maintain that

1585
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:22,560
belief but my point before I get way way

1586
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:25,530
too far our field is that's a little bit

1587
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:28,890
easier to hone in on and say yeah that

1588
01:09:34,570 --> 01:09:30,330
sounds pretty evil to me

1589
01:09:38,870 --> 01:09:34,580
and it also sounds to me like they were

1590
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:38,880
intentionally trying to connect with a

1591
01:09:43,610 --> 01:09:41,730
monovalent force in the extended

1592
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:43,620
consciousness realm that's what they

1593
01:09:50,810 --> 01:09:46,650
were doing and Thomas Parsons and them

1594
01:09:52,790 --> 01:09:50,820
and no no now I'm talking about the

1595
01:09:55,850 --> 01:09:52,800
people that abused Annika Luke as a kid

1596
01:09:57,260 --> 01:09:55,860
or satanic hmm yeah I don't know what

1597
01:09:59,090 --> 01:09:57,270
that means I want to explore what that

1598
01:10:01,040 --> 01:09:59,100
means because I don't accept a strict

1599
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:01,050
Christian understanding of that and

1600
01:10:06,290 --> 01:10:04,320
we're gonna expand on that too but when

1601
01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:06,300
they're talking about satanic ritual

1602
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:08,880
abuse they're not doing those rituals to

1603
01:10:14,990 --> 01:10:12,210
get anything more like physically it's

1604
01:10:18,260 --> 01:10:15,000
they are making an intentional effort to

1605
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:18,270
connect with an extended realm in the

1606
01:10:24,260 --> 01:10:20,970
same way paralleling what Jack Parsons

1607
01:10:27,710 --> 01:10:24,270
and Elrond harbored is doing so we need

1608
01:10:31,850 --> 01:10:27,720
to understand that we don't need to

1609
01:10:34,100 --> 01:10:31,860
gloss over it with a hue urban well they

1610
01:10:35,660 --> 01:10:34,110
certainly think it did which by the way

1611
01:10:37,940 --> 01:10:35,670
is the same thing that Chris Shelton

1612
01:10:40,010 --> 01:10:37,950
winds up saying because he's locked into

1613
01:10:42,470 --> 01:10:40,020
an atheist

1614
01:10:45,350 --> 01:10:42,480
critical thinker pseudo skeptic kind of

1615
01:10:47,810 --> 01:10:45,360
thing you can't get there from here if

1616
01:10:52,100 --> 01:10:47,820
you don't understand that and the point

1617
01:10:55,370 --> 01:10:52,110
is evil clarifies it that level of evil

1618
01:10:58,760 --> 01:10:55,380
clarifies it says okay something is

1619
01:11:01,610 --> 01:10:58,770
going on there that I need to talk about

1620
01:11:03,740 --> 01:11:01,620
and then I need to understand I need to

1621
01:11:08,150 --> 01:11:03,750
incorporate it into my worldview and

1622
01:11:11,390 --> 01:11:08,160
then I guess I'd ask you rich where how

1623
01:11:13,550 --> 01:11:11,400
does that fit with and this is narrowly

1624
01:11:16,090 --> 01:11:13,560
how does that fit with the question that

1625
01:11:19,790 --> 01:11:16,100
you've asked me if that is a reality

1626
01:11:22,610 --> 01:11:19,800
then you know what's the big deal if a

1627
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:22,620
guy is you know trying to sell a few

1628
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:26,010
more widgets and whatever way he can do

1629
01:11:30,700 --> 01:11:28,170
it does it really matter you know

1630
01:11:33,230 --> 01:11:30,710
playing fast and loose with the kind of

1631
01:11:35,690 --> 01:11:33,240
Luciferian do what thou wilt yeah I

1632
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:35,700
don't know what do you think yeah I I

1633
01:11:41,660 --> 01:11:38,490
don't know I really I bet that's where I

1634
01:11:45,130 --> 01:11:41,670
I have I'm intrigued and I think it's

1635
01:11:47,330 --> 01:11:45,140
very important to draw the connections

1636
01:11:50,750 --> 01:11:47,340
again it's certainly in a lot of

1637
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:50,760
people's interest to push you know the

1638
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:54,650
materialist world view and to and

1639
01:12:01,940 --> 01:11:57,090
certainly you know and a lot of people's

1640
01:12:04,310 --> 01:12:01,950
interests I suppose to push the you know

1641
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:04,320
the whatever it is and again but but

1642
01:12:08,900 --> 01:12:05,490
again I don't know what it is that

1643
01:12:11,420 --> 01:12:08,910
motivates people and satanic cults

1644
01:12:13,610 --> 01:12:11,430
really you know what I mean I don't um

1645
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:13,620
know what it is that's motivating those

1646
01:12:18,380 --> 01:12:15,510
people are and who's directing it and

1647
01:12:20,690 --> 01:12:18,390
and and is it is it beyond you know is

1648
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:20,700
it is it something that goes as deep or

1649
01:12:24,950 --> 01:12:22,530
high as the government that's

1650
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:24,960
deliberately trying to promulgate this

1651
01:12:29,300 --> 01:12:27,570
kind of stuff and promote it or is it

1652
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:29,310
deeper than that do the Gnostics have it

1653
01:12:35,660 --> 01:12:31,050
right I mean that that's really the kind

1654
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:35,670
of thing that I assume you've started to

1655
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:38,010
develop a worldview about but that's why

1656
01:12:43,940 --> 01:12:41,970
I have a tremendous affinity with what

1657
01:12:46,250 --> 01:12:43,950
you're kind of bringing forth with this

1658
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:46,260
moral responsibility criminal

1659
01:12:51,130 --> 01:12:49,170
culpability and as grandiose as it might

1660
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:51,140
seem this idea that

1661
01:12:58,900 --> 01:12:55,010
we can kind of suggest a new paradigm

1662
01:13:00,790 --> 01:12:58,910
with which to understand extended

1663
01:13:03,790 --> 01:13:00,800
consciousness realm and understand it

1664
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:03,800
from a serious intellectual standpoint

1665
01:13:11,140 --> 01:13:08,510
and I think it requires a reboot it

1666
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:11,150
requires a real reboot and and in that I

1667
01:13:14,440 --> 01:13:13,010
think we would want to be really careful

1668
01:13:15,730 --> 01:13:14,450
in a way that you're talking about in

1669
01:13:17,530 --> 01:13:15,740
some of your stories as a criminal

1670
01:13:19,660 --> 01:13:17,540
investigator we want to be really

1671
01:13:22,540 --> 01:13:19,670
careful about rushing to a lot of

1672
01:13:25,060 --> 01:13:22,550
conclusions but we would want to be

1673
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:25,070
really aggressive in pointing out the

1674
01:13:31,090 --> 01:13:28,610
huge failings of what we have currently

1675
01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:31,100
so that's kind of where I'm coming from

1676
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:35,510
gotcha yeah I certainly agree I can't

1677
01:13:40,210 --> 01:13:38,480
disagree with that all right I don't

1678
01:13:42,250 --> 01:13:40,220
know what you just signed up for as we

1679
01:13:46,330 --> 01:13:42,260
wrap things up here did you want to tell

1680
01:13:48,820 --> 01:13:46,340
folks what else is going on in in your

1681
01:13:51,250 --> 01:13:48,830
world and what else you do when you're

1682
01:13:53,740 --> 01:13:51,260
not being hurrying by I'm doing I'm

1683
01:13:56,470 --> 01:13:53,750
doing some research and and publishing

1684
01:13:59,020 --> 01:13:56,480
on a book chapter that's coming out

1685
01:14:01,690 --> 01:13:59,030
bloomsbury I think you can pre-order it

1686
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:01,700
now in a book about the philosophy of

1687
01:14:07,660 --> 01:14:04,730
stre or a Bindo and my my contribution

1688
01:14:10,420 --> 01:14:07,670
is in respect to his philosophy of mind

1689
01:14:13,300 --> 01:14:10,430
and metaphysics with um and how it maps

1690
01:14:15,190 --> 01:14:13,310
on to traditional Western philosophies

1691
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:15,200
of mind so it certainly speaks to the

1692
01:14:21,100 --> 01:14:17,650
the skeptical constituency and then

1693
01:14:23,710 --> 01:14:21,110
doing an article that you you were kind

1694
01:14:26,490 --> 01:14:23,720
enough to to subject yourself to on a

1695
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:26,500
scientism in Western culture and

1696
01:14:32,740 --> 01:14:29,090
Maslow's Abe Maslow's loom own book of

1697
01:14:34,330 --> 01:14:32,750
psychology of science and a couple of

1698
01:14:36,100 --> 01:14:34,340
other projects along those lines with

1699
01:14:40,270 --> 01:14:36,110
I'm collaborating with what scholarly

1700
01:14:43,660 --> 01:14:40,280
peers as as valueless as the such

1701
01:14:53,500 --> 01:14:43,670
scholarship might be and superficial but

1702
01:14:56,410 --> 01:14:53,510
I don't we have to reform we have to try

1703
01:14:58,420 --> 01:14:56,420
and perform it and I agree with you know

1704
01:14:59,590 --> 01:14:58,430
I I completely agree with you again

1705
01:15:02,620 --> 01:14:59,600
that's why I went on that rant about

1706
01:15:04,370 --> 01:15:02,630
about the academic culture being you

1707
01:15:07,090 --> 01:15:04,380
know because they sell themselves

1708
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:07,100
the Paragons of intellectual freedom and

1709
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:09,449
imagination and creative thought and you

1710
01:15:15,110 --> 01:15:11,489
know liberating your mind and when they

1711
01:15:18,169 --> 01:15:15,120
adjust the opposite right like what I

1712
01:15:21,890 --> 01:15:18,179
always say about like in the broader

1713
01:15:25,340 --> 01:15:21,900
conspiracy world about like kind of 9/11

1714
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:25,350
or like all hope is lost really in this

1715
01:15:30,350 --> 01:15:28,010
post constitutional age that we live in

1716
01:15:33,410 --> 01:15:30,360
interview with Richard Dolan and stomach

1717
01:15:38,510 --> 01:15:33,420
yeah it's like hey the Navy commercials

1718
01:15:42,620 --> 01:15:38,520
are our best hope right good good

1719
01:15:45,290 --> 01:15:42,630
boys we should aspire to that so in the

1720
01:15:47,810 --> 01:15:45,300
same way great you go ahead you keep you

1721
01:15:51,709 --> 01:15:47,820
keep talking about freedom and trees and

1722
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:51,719
all that stuff you academic tower that's

1723
01:15:58,149 --> 01:15:54,690
what we want you on that tower we need

1724
01:16:01,399 --> 01:15:58,159
[Laughter]

1725
01:16:03,500 --> 01:16:01,409
yeah absolutely absolutely there is one

1726
01:16:05,510 --> 01:16:03,510
reason why I've never been particularly

1727
01:16:07,970 --> 01:16:05,520
I've been I've been a very half-hearted

1728
01:16:09,950 --> 01:16:07,980
scholar under um you know I've just

1729
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:09,960
never been you know it's a game you

1730
01:16:14,810 --> 01:16:13,050
really have to play seriously and abide

1731
01:16:16,459 --> 01:16:14,820
by really rigid rules and devote

1732
01:16:19,010 --> 01:16:16,469
yourself to it in a very disciplined

1733
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:19,020
kind of way to make uh to make a name

1734
01:16:23,629 --> 01:16:20,850
for yourself in it like it like a Heuer

1735
01:16:26,570 --> 01:16:23,639
band so I respect him you know what he's

1736
01:16:29,149 --> 01:16:26,580
had to do in order to do that but again

1737
01:16:31,430 --> 01:16:29,159
he's limited by the constraints of the

1738
01:16:33,830 --> 01:16:31,440
sack of the you know the monastic order

1739
01:16:36,470 --> 01:16:33,840
that he's joined you know so that is a

1740
01:16:38,390 --> 01:16:36,480
very personal question that I guess I

1741
01:16:44,330 --> 01:16:38,400
wasn't going to ask but since you

1742
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:44,340
brought it up yeah and that is do you

1743
01:16:51,979 --> 01:16:48,650
think your particular academic journey

1744
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:51,989
has given you more freedom because a lot

1745
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:53,610
of people would look at it and say god

1746
01:16:59,629 --> 01:16:56,850
this guy teaches online classes he also

1747
01:17:01,209 --> 01:16:59,639
teaches at Florida State College and you

1748
01:17:05,450 --> 01:17:01,219
know that's not an Ivy League school

1749
01:17:09,379 --> 01:17:05,460
right oh you know but I get the sense

1750
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:09,389
that in a lot of ways you've you've

1751
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:11,850
managed to use that to your benefit when

1752
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:13,440
I talked to these other folks like I'm

1753
01:17:17,290 --> 01:17:16,050
talking about there is a weight on their

1754
01:17:20,860 --> 01:17:17,300
friggin shoulder

1755
01:17:24,490 --> 01:17:20,870
that they can't they can't escape mm-hmm

1756
01:17:27,700 --> 01:17:24,500
yeah yes uh yeah that's it really that

1757
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:27,710
was that's very observant um I would say

1758
01:17:34,690 --> 01:17:32,170
yeah I've somehow managed to carve an

1759
01:17:39,910 --> 01:17:34,700
unconventional enough path for myself

1760
01:17:41,890 --> 01:17:39,920
within that community that I have pretty

1761
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:41,900
good access to a lot of the interesting

1762
01:17:48,070 --> 01:17:44,770
and and valuable I don't know the

1763
01:17:52,290 --> 01:17:48,080
resources that and and and opportunities

1764
01:17:57,160 --> 01:17:52,300
that academic has while not having to

1765
01:17:58,540 --> 01:17:57,170
endure the the really again III don't

1766
01:18:00,340 --> 01:17:58,550
think they'd they'd think it they

1767
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:00,350
wouldn't consider it they don't think

1768
01:18:09,130 --> 01:18:03,770
it's it's a it's a rigid you know

1769
01:18:12,340 --> 01:18:09,140
hidebound ordeal I think I think really

1770
01:18:15,010 --> 01:18:12,350
you do huh maybe I think I think Hugh

1771
01:18:17,500 --> 01:18:15,020
Urban has has I mean Frick

1772
01:18:19,870 --> 01:18:17,510
I hate didn't says no you know Brian

1773
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:19,880
Hayden you know as soon as you make the

1774
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:21,770
Royal Society will pick on Brian Hayden

1775
01:18:28,300 --> 01:18:24,650
for a while the Royal Society of

1776
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:28,310
anthropology yeah you don't want to not

1777
01:18:46,270 --> 01:18:33,010
be invited next year mmm yeah so the pre

1778
01:18:48,670 --> 01:18:46,280
cocktail hour where they have for you

1779
01:18:54,220 --> 01:18:48,680
when you said you know I wasn't invited

1780
01:18:56,470 --> 01:18:54,230
last year but they can go you you can

1781
01:18:57,850 --> 01:18:56,480
say I can't go you know [\h__\h] down a

1782
01:18:59,980 --> 01:18:57,860
couple hundred bucks and go to the

1783
01:19:03,040 --> 01:18:59,990
parapsychology Association meeting and I

1784
01:19:07,540 --> 01:19:03,050
can get and I can talk to people on a

1785
01:19:09,790 --> 01:19:07,550
you know and I can be ya know I guess

1786
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:09,800
yeah it's liberating in some ways but in

1787
01:19:15,130 --> 01:19:12,890
other ways um you know Donald Hoffman as

1788
01:19:17,410 --> 01:19:15,140
a has a huge constituency that cares

1789
01:19:18,970 --> 01:19:17,420
about what Donald Hoffman says or same

1790
01:19:22,570 --> 01:19:18,980
thing with Hugh Urban whereas you know

1791
01:19:24,100 --> 01:19:22,580
nobody you know I published a paper once

1792
01:19:25,390 --> 01:19:24,110
in a while or a book chapter and I'll

1793
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:25,400
give a paper at a conference or

1794
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:27,410
something but nobody cares what you know

1795
01:19:29,820 --> 01:19:29,330
I really don't if you're not open you

1796
01:19:34,510 --> 01:19:29,830
play

1797
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:34,520
you know that it's not as you're not as

1798
01:19:39,370 --> 01:19:36,800
famous as guys we're all in the minor

1799
01:19:41,470 --> 01:19:39,380
leagues we're all in the minor leagues

1800
01:19:43,420 --> 01:19:41,480
and I mean that for with all respect to

1801
01:19:51,940 --> 01:19:43,430
you know Donnell Hoffman

1802
01:19:53,470 --> 01:19:51,950
go talk to my kids you know yeah you

1803
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:53,480
know I just I just had an interview with

1804
01:19:56,530 --> 01:19:55,130
Richard don't know I said this the three

1805
01:19:58,960 --> 01:19:56,540
people any of you with Richard Dolan

1806
01:20:01,990 --> 01:19:58,970
which I was so delighted about because I

1807
01:20:04,630 --> 01:20:02,000
so respected me so highly regarded in

1808
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:04,640
the UFO community um doesn't move the

1809
01:20:10,060 --> 01:20:07,490
meter an inch Beauty pop that's who

1810
01:20:12,250 --> 01:20:10,070
we're all chasing right yeah I is the

1811
01:20:14,590 --> 01:20:12,260
most respected I like PewDiePie by the

1812
01:20:17,140 --> 01:20:14,600
way but it's like are you kidding this

1813
01:20:19,810 --> 01:20:17,150
is all just you know mmm if we're gonna

1814
01:20:21,550 --> 01:20:19,820
measure it by by that I think the only

1815
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:21,560
way to measure it is we just have to try

1816
01:20:26,590 --> 01:20:23,690
and advance the ball and not be too

1817
01:20:28,900 --> 01:20:26,600
attached to the results which yeah your

1818
01:20:31,420 --> 01:20:28,910
mentors and my mentors would would kind

1819
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:31,430
of agree with oh yeah absolutely

1820
01:20:34,780 --> 01:20:33,290
I agree with you and and I again I think

1821
01:20:37,750 --> 01:20:34,790
that's what you've managed to do you've

1822
01:20:41,170 --> 01:20:37,760
managed to create this this forum in

1823
01:20:43,900 --> 01:20:41,180
which you can engage these grand access

1824
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:43,910
really these great minds I mean people

1825
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:45,890
who are you know playing in the major

1826
01:20:52,150 --> 01:20:48,530
leagues of the of the academic fields

1827
01:20:53,740 --> 01:20:52,160
arm and really and really push them but

1828
01:20:55,420 --> 01:20:53,750
you can also do it in ways that their

1829
01:20:56,980 --> 01:20:55,430
colleagues can cuz they're not free to

1830
01:20:58,720 --> 01:20:56,990
do that they're not free to go there I

1831
01:21:01,300 --> 01:20:58,730
think you've done the same thing with

1832
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:01,310
this show so well that's nice of you to

1833
01:21:04,510 --> 01:21:02,930
say you know I remember a long time ago

1834
01:21:07,210 --> 01:21:04,520
I mean I didn't do it kind of

1835
01:21:09,250 --> 01:21:07,220
intentionally I just did it because the

1836
01:21:10,690 --> 01:21:09,260
way I was coming from it my expectations

1837
01:21:13,620 --> 01:21:10,700
and the fact the big thing was that I

1838
01:21:16,630 --> 01:21:13,630
didn't have any financial expectations

1839
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:16,640
and I had never designed the show to do

1840
01:21:21,820 --> 01:21:17,810
that but I remember a long time ago

1841
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:21,830
talking to Dean Radin and I talked to

1842
01:21:25,090 --> 01:21:23,330
him really early on and then I talked to

1843
01:21:26,590 --> 01:21:25,100
him a few minutes later he goes you know

1844
01:21:28,650 --> 01:21:26,600
you've really kind of done something

1845
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:28,660
here because you're truly independent

1846
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:32,770
yeah and it didn't quite strike me until

1847
01:21:38,650 --> 01:21:35,690
later I go oh I see what he means I

1848
01:21:41,299 --> 01:21:38,660
really get to just because I don't have

1849
01:21:43,700 --> 01:21:41,309
that financial

1850
01:21:46,490 --> 01:21:43,710
component baked in and because I'm not

1851
01:21:49,459 --> 01:21:46,500
interested in giving keynote speeches at

1852
01:21:51,770 --> 01:21:49,469
anyone's conferences and I've turned

1853
01:21:54,410 --> 01:21:51,780
them down when I've gotten them it does

1854
01:21:57,169 --> 01:21:54,420
give me an ability to kind of just do my

1855
01:21:58,970 --> 01:21:57,179
own thing in a way that I certainly like

1856
01:22:02,390 --> 01:21:58,980
and in the longer lens I think has

1857
01:22:05,629 --> 01:22:02,400
served a purpose in terms of a certain

1858
01:22:06,950 --> 01:22:05,639
yeah we dependent yeah even though it's

1859
01:22:09,260 --> 01:22:06,960
opinionated you know it's highly

1860
01:22:11,950 --> 01:22:09,270
opinionated by me but it's like it's

1861
01:22:14,990 --> 01:22:11,960
just my opinion it's not somebody else's

1862
01:22:16,189 --> 01:22:15,000
button again and your children pointed

1863
01:22:18,649 --> 01:22:16,199
that out that you think your guy you

1864
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:18,659
said several times how that your show is

1865
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:20,130
you know it does important work for

1866
01:22:27,319 --> 01:22:23,520
those reasons but you know I think to

1867
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:27,329
you you tend to be such a you're sort of

1868
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:29,130
like I know why your political leanings

1869
01:22:33,859 --> 01:22:31,530
are you certain intellectual libertarian

1870
01:22:35,390 --> 01:22:33,869
anyway as far as ideas go you're sort of

1871
01:22:37,310 --> 01:22:35,400
a libertarian you're like throw them out

1872
01:22:39,260 --> 01:22:37,320
there in the free market and and you

1873
01:22:41,209 --> 01:22:39,270
know and see how they fly and let

1874
01:22:44,029 --> 01:22:41,219
everybody hash it out and see who's you

1875
01:22:46,330 --> 01:22:44,039
know who let everybody come to their own

1876
01:22:48,529 --> 01:22:46,340
conclusions you tend to be an

1877
01:22:50,450 --> 01:22:48,539
iconoclastic sort of I at least I sense

1878
01:22:54,140 --> 01:22:50,460
that in you and an individualistic kind

1879
01:22:57,020 --> 01:22:54,150
of thinker that's that's a luxury that I

1880
01:22:59,120 --> 01:22:57,030
mean that you just don't have and and as

1881
01:23:00,799 --> 01:22:59,130
you suggest maybe that's the point that

1882
01:23:03,140 --> 01:23:00,809
that's it's on purpose that you don't

1883
01:23:05,350 --> 01:23:03,150
have that luxury in the established

1884
01:23:08,450 --> 01:23:05,360
institutions that's what worries me

1885
01:23:10,250 --> 01:23:08,460
well I'm getting a paranoid that's a

1886
01:23:13,129 --> 01:23:10,260
great that's a great point they're so

1887
01:23:15,319 --> 01:23:13,139
rich it's been just awesome again having

1888
01:23:18,500 --> 01:23:15,329
you on our guest has been dr. Richard

1889
01:23:20,180 --> 01:23:18,510
Grieco you'll find his past interviews

1890
01:23:21,290 --> 01:23:20,190
I'll try to include those in the show

1891
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:21,300
notes because they're really good you

1892
01:23:25,250 --> 01:23:23,250
want to check those out and I'll have a

1893
01:23:27,260 --> 01:23:25,260
link to his website where you can check